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Jeter - Great Leader? - look again

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Postby Strasil42 » Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:23 pm

By the way, In the last 3 years [03-05] Arods close and late BA/OBP/Slugging/OPS are all better then Manny Ramirez, but I have never heard one person call Manny "unclutch".

Maybe it's time we stop comparing Arod to Ortiz. Ortiz is the only one of the 3 [Manny,Arod,Ortiz]. That JUST gets paid to hit, and he obviously earns his paycheck..

Close and late 03-05

Avg/OBP/Slug/OPS

Arod .276 .392 .553 .945
Manny .270 .387 .423 .810
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Postby astav28 » Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:35 pm

First of all, before anything, throw the stats out the window. I dont care about these "close and late" arbitrary guidelines some nerd sitting in a Stats Inc. came up with. What people see of you, usually gets a pretty good guideline of how you perform.

And as far as Jeter sticking up for A-Rod. Honestly, I think its insulting. A-Rod is a grown man making 25 million a year, Jeter, his same age peer, sticking up for him in the media makes it look like A-Rod is his kid brother. He's not gonna humiliate a guy like that. Hes being more of a leader by ignoring it.

The giambi situation isnt analagous at all, thats similar to speaking out saying supporting a guy who is going through a hard time. He didnt ask the fans to stop booing Giambi because he hurts his feelings; he said to rally behind him because he was coming back from a tough time.

A-rod hasnt experienced any adversity. Also, I dont know if you remember, but before A-Rod came to the yankees he said something along these lines::


Derek Jeter doesnt know what it is like to have to lead a team, to feel pressure. He has bernie williams and tino martinez and paul oneil; hes never been a go to guy. Hes never been the heart of a team. He doesnt know pressure.

If you were Jeter, deep down you would have to love a guy like that coming into YOUR ELEMENT and absolutely getting eaten alive.

A-rod didnt know pressure; jeter thrives in it. I am a yankee fan and I DO root for A-rod, but lets be honest, hes getting a little bit of Knoblauch syndryome with his fielding and his hitting, at times, is suspect. He isnt the player he was in texas or seattle; no one can deny that. hes still great but he is an easy guy to dislike. he brings nothing to the table personality wise and he doesnt produce consistently in key situations. thats all there is too it.

ps: i also like how the bronxbombers guy told us the reason jeter didnt speak up for him. I like the fact that Jeter must have told him his reasoning since he so confidently presented it as fact.
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Re: Jeter - Great Leader? - look again

Postby MentalPowerHouse » Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:55 pm

SonsofSlam04 wrote:In today's New York Daily News sports section page#52, there is an interesting article. It seems that D Jeter was asked again why he doesnt go public and ask the fans to lay off of ARod - his response "My job is to support him, to offer any support I can and that's what I do - with all my teammates." Jeter said. "That's my job. My job isn't to tell fans what to do. What power do I have to do that?"
This is such a lame response. His job as team captain is to set the example on and off the field - which to his credit - he does. In addition to setting the example his other responsibility as team captain is to protect his teammates - in this case ARod.
Funny how after J Giambi came back from his steriod fiasco, Jeter went public and asked the fans for support, gee that seems like he asked the fans for support. Why doesn't he do the same for ARod? Its clear that ARod does care, perhaps too much and its definitely taking a toll on his play especially in the field.
Two times Jeter has had the opportunity to protect ARod - once in the off season when the Boston Red Sox were ripping ARod daily - His response then was "thats life deal with it"
And of course the last few weeks when the New York media has made it unbearable for ARod to do anything without getting flamed broiled.
Jeter step up, protect your teammate - whether you like him or not you stand a much better chance for success if ARod starts to produce! Stop allowing your personal feelings for ARod to get in the way of the team's best interest. Do what it takes to be a great leader!


Sounds like you're a hater and are reaching.
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Postby Tavish » Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:29 pm

astav28 wrote:He isnt the player he was in texas or seattle; no one can deny that.


I'll deny it.

.321 BA
.421 OBP
.610 SLG
48 HR
130 RBI
124 Runs
167 OPS+
AL MVP
Image

Bury me a Royal.
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Postby rmande09 » Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:33 pm

astav said it perfectly. Jeter asked everyone to rally behind Giambi - not lay off him - because of what he was coming back from. Jeter was showing Giambi he could put his past behind him and welcome him back to the team after a tough time.

Asking the media and fans to stop ripping ARod would be childish. Every player in New York has to deal with the critics, it's part of the job. I'm sure Jeter tries to help ARod through the criticism behind closed doors, but publicly asking the fans and media to stop would probably make life worse for ARod. They'd bash him for not being able to deal with his own problems and it would magnify everything he does more than it already is.

It is idiotic to think Jeter is a poor leader for not publicly telling media and fans to lay off ARod.
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Re: Jeter - Great Leader? - look again

Postby jvmillion83 » Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:38 pm

SonsofSlam04 wrote:In today's New York Daily News sports section page#52, there is an interesting article. It seems that D Jeter was asked again why he doesnt go public and ask the fans to lay off of ARod - his response "My job is to support him, to offer any support I can and that's what I do - with all my teammates." Jeter said. "That's my job. My job isn't to tell fans what to do. What power do I have to do that?"
This is such a lame response. His job as team captain is to set the example on and off the field - which to his credit - he does. In addition to setting the example his other responsibility as team captain is to protect his teammates - in this case ARod.
Funny how after J Giambi came back from his steriod fiasco, Jeter went public and asked the fans for support, gee that seems like he asked the fans for support. Why doesn't he do the same for ARod? Its clear that ARod does care, perhaps too much and its definitely taking a toll on his play especially in the field.
Two times Jeter has had the opportunity to protect ARod - once in the off season when the Boston Red Sox were ripping ARod daily - His response then was "thats life deal with it"
And of course the last few weeks when the New York media has made it unbearable for ARod to do anything without getting flamed broiled.
Jeter step up, protect your teammate - whether you like him or not you stand a much better chance for success if ARod starts to produce! Stop allowing your personal feelings for ARod to get in the way of the team's best interest. Do what it takes to be a great leader!


With the handle, SonsOfSlam04 has to be a Red Sox fan trying to stir trouble. You should be worrying about ur own team instead of looking for reasons to hate on Jeter. Quotes are often taken out of context and the media loves to brainwash the public. People get boo'ed all the time; its part of the game. Jeter has his own responsibility of staying focused and trying to lead this team to October. Jeter doesn't have a responsibility to the media.
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Postby KPucks » Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:24 pm

astav28 wrote:First of all, before anything, throw the stats out the window. I dont care about these "close and late" arbitrary guidelines some nerd sitting in a Stats Inc. came up with. What people see of you, usually gets a pretty good guideline of how you perform.


This is ludicrous. Statistics give you all the information about how A-Rod has performed in certain situations. You don't like the specific guidelines for close and late situations? Then go look at A-Rod's numbers in whatever situations you want. You will see that he is one of the best hitters in the game. This includes the postseason and any other "clutch" situations, which isn't surprising considering the best overall hitters usually have the best "clutch" numbers (I wonder why? I wouldn't dare say that there are no such thing as clutch hitters though because I'm sure you "know" there are.)

And another thing. It amazes me how much people criticize A-Rod's fielding at 3B. I bet most of these people are the ones that praise Jeter as the greatest fielding SS of all-time because of "what they see." These people also never bring up the fact that A-Rod was quite possibly the best fielding SS in the league before coming to New York and likely would have been a much better fielding SS than Jeter over the past few years.
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Postby jvmillion83 » Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:32 pm

rmande09 wrote:astav said it perfectly. Jeter asked everyone to rally behind Giambi - not lay off him - because of what he was coming back from. Jeter was showing Giambi he could put his past behind him and welcome him back to the team after a tough time.

Asking the media and fans to stop ripping ARod would be childish. Every player in New York has to deal with the critics, it's part of the job. I'm sure Jeter tries to help ARod through the criticism behind closed doors, but publicly asking the fans and media to stop would probably make life worse for ARod. They'd bash him for not being able to deal with his own problems and it would magnify everything he does more than it already is.

It is idiotic to think Jeter is a poor leader for not publicly telling media and fans to lay off ARod.


Exactly, I don't know what the mantra is for other baseball markets out there, but in NYY we only care about winning and not pleasing the media. We invest heavily to bring the best resources to the organization so we can be the BEST. So if ur not contributing, you are gonna hear it from the fans. Tough luck. Everyone stepping onto this team realizes that they gotta drop their egos at the door and take criticism if necessary. If you contribute, the fans are going to love you. If ur screwing up, u will hear it. We aren't one of these organizations that is just satisfied with effort. We demand results and everyone from the top on down understands that. Jeter and everybody understands it. Its all in being a Yankee. They don't care. They only care about this tough road trip we gotta grind out in TOR and TEX b4 our next homestand.
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Postby rmande09 » Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:39 pm

jvmillion83 wrote:Exactly, I don't know what the mantra is for other baseball markets out there, but in NYY we only care about winning and not pleasing the media. We invest heavily to bring the best resources to the organization so we can be the BEST. So if ur not contributing, you are gonna hear it from the fans. Tough luck. Everyone stepping onto this team realizes that they gotta drop their egos at the door and take criticism if necessary. If you contribute, the fans are going to love you. If ur screwing up, u will hear it. We aren't one of these organizations that is just satisfied with effort. We demand results and everyone from the top on down understands that. Jeter and everybody understands it. Its all in being a Yankee. They don't care. They only care about this tough road trip we gotta grind out in TOR and TEX b4 our next homestand.


Being a big time Sox fan, I understand exactly what you're talking about. We are intense and nothing matters to us between April and October except that win column (and, inevitably, that team we hate about 300 miles west ;-) ). Jeter is one of my favorite players around, despite being on my most hated team, because he gets that. He gets that this is a business and if you perform, the fans let you know, but if you fail, the fans let you know. There is not a damn thing Jeter can say to get ARod off the hook, and Jeter knows this. It is all about performance. ARod could make 3 errors one day and the fans will hate him, then hit a walk-off homer the next and they'll love him. Until ARod realizes that it is what he does today that really matters, he will always be bogged down by what the media wrote about him the day before.
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Postby BronXBombers51 » Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:50 pm

astav28 wrote:First of all, before anything, throw the stats out the window. I dont care about these "close and late" arbitrary guidelines some nerd sitting in a Stats Inc. came up with. What people see of you, usually gets a pretty good guideline of how you perform.


I should have just stopped reading after you posted this, because it's obvious where you're going with it. Unfortunately, I kept reading.

And as far as Jeter sticking up for A-Rod. Honestly, I think its insulting. A-Rod is a grown man making 25 million a year, Jeter, his same age peer, sticking up for him in the media makes it look like A-Rod is his kid brother. He's not gonna humiliate a guy like that. Hes being more of a leader by ignoring it.


A leader is supposed to step up and....lead his team. He's supposed to have his teammates back. He had Giambi's back. He didn't have A-Rod's. It's as simple as that. Now, you can't blame Jeter. But if he's the 'leader' and 'captain' that everyone makes him out to be, he would have had A-Rod's back. The media asks him about A-Rod all the time. He never said anything to support A-Rod. He said 'everyone goes through it, you have to deal with it.'

How does A-Rod look like Jeter's kid brother, and Giambi doesn't? Jeter could have done the same for both. Why does Jeter have to get the fans to 'rally' behind Giambi who was coming back from a 'tough time' (I guess destroying your body by taking steroids is considered a tough time now?). Why couldn't he get the fans to rally behind A-Rod and help him through his rough stretch. We all know he's been struggling this year, and the Yankees need him if they want to go anywhere this year.

The giambi situation isnt analagous at all, thats similar to speaking out saying supporting a guy who is going through a hard time. He didnt ask the fans to stop booing Giambi because he hurts his feelings; he said to rally behind him because he was coming back from a tough time.


Again....tough time? He took frigging steroids. It was his own fault. He used illegal drugs to make him better. How is that a 'tough time'. Putting up MVP numbers and carrying your team to the playoffs, and then getting booed and called a choker the following season is more of a 'tough time' than that. Giambi brought everything on himself, yet Jeter went out of his way to get the fans behind him.

A-rod hasnt experienced any adversity. Also, I dont know if you remember, but before A-Rod came to the yankees he said something along these lines::


Derek Jeter doesnt know what it is like to have to lead a team, to feel pressure. He has bernie williams and tino martinez and paul oneil; hes never been a go to guy. Hes never been the heart of a team. He doesnt know pressure.


Alright? I'm not saying A-Rod is Mr. Nice Guy or is the knife in the drawer. I'm saying that this bashing of him is unwarranted and unfair.

If you were Jeter, deep down you would have to love a guy like that coming into YOUR ELEMENT and absolutely getting eaten alive.


Jeter's personal feelings should have nothing to do with him sticking up for A-Rod. Captains are supposed to put the team ahead of everything. Obviously Jeter doesn't like A-Rod and he won't stick up for him. I don't have a problem with it. But I also don't want to hear people praise him as 'Oh Captain, Our Captain' when he stood aside and let A-Rod get ripped apart.

A-rod didnt know pressure; jeter thrives in it. I am a yankee fan and I DO root for A-rod, but lets be honest, hes getting a little bit of Knoblauch syndryome with his fielding and his hitting, at times, is suspect. He isnt the player he was in texas or seattle; no one can deny that. hes still great but he is an easy guy to dislike. he brings nothing to the table personality wise and he doesnt produce consistently in key situations. thats all there is too it.


Here's where the statistics you admitted to ignoring earlier in this post come into play...

How are you going to tell me that A-Rod is a different player than he was in Texas/Seattle when he put up comparable numbers and won the MVP last year? How are you going to tell me he doesn't produce in key situations when I've rattled off several key hits he's gotten...in numerous threads?

Is he struggling this year? Hell yeah. Nobody is denying that. But instead of the fans recognizing the fact that he's a top 2 player in the game, and he had won an MVP and led them to the postseason a year prior, they boo him unmercifully and call him a choker.

ps: i also like how the bronxbombers guy told us the reason jeter didnt speak up for him. I like the fact that Jeter must have told him his reasoning since he so confidently presented it as fact.


So you believe Jeter isn't sticking up for A-Rod because he wants to 'toughen him up'? You just showed us A-Rod quotes and admitted that Jeter doesn't/shouldn't like him. You admitted that Jeter should love having "a guy like that" (A-Rod) come into NY and get "eaten alive."

So you say all that, and then you criticize me for saying the same exact thing, in less words? :-?
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