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D-Train to STL????

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Postby cards05 » Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:09 am

bigh0rt wrote:
free wrote:
Snakes Gould wrote:there is a trade rumor thread right above you. you should probably put these rumors in there ;-D


yeah, and you should probably get a life ;-D


Cause people without lives actually care about the state of the Cafe? :-?

I don't get it...


I think he was saying that you would really have to go out of your way to challenge this thread being important enough to have its own separate discussion apart from the general trade thread. At least, that's what I thought when I read it. There's a difference between regulating and nitpicking...

Anyway, I agree that Reyes and Rasmus would be too much to give up for Willis. However, one thing nobody has mentioned is Reyes's injury history. He has a lot of talent, but most prospect reports always said something like, "if it weren't for the injury risk, he'd be a top flight prospect." I can't remember exactly what round he was selected in the draft, but I know he dropped significantly due to his injury risk. It may be that Walt would like to move him while the stock is somewhat high...
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Postby BTOWNHESS » Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:16 am

mcliffy2 wrote:
BTOWNHESS wrote:It makes a lot of sense..with a wide open N.L. and the reigning Cy Young winner and MVP on their team, they are a few pieces from taking the N.L. again. D-Train plus Carpenter in the playoffs, especially a 5 game series is scary. Also with the questions about mulder and the total destruction of Marquis and the averageness of Suppan that pitching rotation could use a huge shot in the arm. Plus look at Reyes, besides one above average start he has looked nothing like some of the young rookie hurlers to emerge this year (Liriano, Weaver, Zumaya, Verlander, J. Johnson, etc.)



If I were jocketty I'd do this in a heartbeat, Reyes might be good, i doubt great, and prospects dont always pan out, with Dontrelle you KNOW youre getting a stud.


As a cards fan, I couldn't disagree more. If you make this play, it is because you are trying to make a play this year. Wainwright is set to start next year I believe, and Reyes has shown he has the ability to be a Maddux type starter. To the contrary of your evaluation, he has had 2 below average starts (not horrible), 1 amazing start and 4 above average (2 ER or less) starts. Is Willis better? Yes, right now. But worth trading the farm, definitely not. I wouldn't trade our current #2 pitcher for a better #2 pitcher...the problem would still be our 3,4,5 guys.

From what I've heard our farm system is pretty thin now (didn't we give up the AA leader in HR for Weaver...not sure about this, but if we did, don't like it). And Duncan is our only decent power hitting prospect...I really don't think we are in a position to make a big trade. I don't think Willis will make us good enough to win the series (maybe to get there, but fall short again). We really need a FA acquisition in the off-season, I hate to say it, but I think that is reality.


Who were the 3,4,5 starters for Arizona's World Series team? exactly my point...you have 2 studs and they catch fire, its over.
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Postby 405z06 » Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:35 am

mcliffy2 wrote:Reyes has shown he has the ability to be a Maddux type starter.


Mike Maddux?
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Postby j_d_mcnugent » Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:54 am

dc928 wrote:
I am not a Cards fan but I disagree. Willis is a very good picther and has been very good for the last 2 months with an ERA under 2. He is a very good #2 pitcher and he might get even better. His record might not show it but this guy will be great. He also has ACE stuff.


willis has ace stuff. he showed that last year. problem is that was last year. while his era has looked nice lately (under 3 i believe, not under 2), his whip is 1.34 since june 1. his peripherals are still largerly worse than career norms and last year's level. essentially he looks like the 2004 version of himself which is more #3 starter than very good #2. he also ranks #8 in number of pitches thrown this year which by itself doesnt mean much but is kind of troublesome when you consider he pitched in the WBC. how will he hold up over the 2nd half? lets just say willis has a lot of question marks.

However, one thing nobody has mentioned is Reyes's injury history. He has a lot of talent, but most prospect reports always said something like, "if it weren't for the injury risk, he'd be a top flight prospect." I can't remember exactly what round he was selected in the draft, but I know he dropped significantly due to his injury risk. It may be that Walt would like to move him while the stock is somewhat high...


he did drop in the draft due to injury. he missed time in college and lost velocity due to tendinitis. i believe he has two DL stints since being drafted, but one of them came immediately after the cards started monkeying around with his mechanics. he has the injury prone tag but its worth noting he has never gone under the knife. i wouldnt call him an innings eater but i think his injury risk is perhaps a little overblown.
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Postby mcliffy2 » Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:03 am

405z06 wrote:
mcliffy2 wrote:Reyes has shown he has the ability to be a Maddux type starter.


Mike Maddux?


funny...reyes gets compared to maddux for his smart pitching and ability to locate pitches.
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Postby mcliffy2 » Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:10 am

BTOWNHESS wrote:
mcliffy2 wrote:
BTOWNHESS wrote:It makes a lot of sense..with a wide open N.L. and the reigning Cy Young winner and MVP on their team, they are a few pieces from taking the N.L. again. D-Train plus Carpenter in the playoffs, especially a 5 game series is scary. Also with the questions about mulder and the total destruction of Marquis and the averageness of Suppan that pitching rotation could use a huge shot in the arm. Plus look at Reyes, besides one above average start he has looked nothing like some of the young rookie hurlers to emerge this year (Liriano, Weaver, Zumaya, Verlander, J. Johnson, etc.)



If I were jocketty I'd do this in a heartbeat, Reyes might be good, i doubt great, and prospects dont always pan out, with Dontrelle you KNOW youre getting a stud.


As a cards fan, I couldn't disagree more. If you make this play, it is because you are trying to make a play this year. Wainwright is set to start next year I believe, and Reyes has shown he has the ability to be a Maddux type starter. To the contrary of your evaluation, he has had 2 below average starts (not horrible), 1 amazing start and 4 above average (2 ER or less) starts. Is Willis better? Yes, right now. But worth trading the farm, definitely not. I wouldn't trade our current #2 pitcher for a better #2 pitcher...the problem would still be our 3,4,5 guys.

From what I've heard our farm system is pretty thin now (didn't we give up the AA leader in HR for Weaver...not sure about this, but if we did, don't like it). And Duncan is our only decent power hitting prospect...I really don't think we are in a position to make a big trade. I don't think Willis will make us good enough to win the series (maybe to get there, but fall short again). We really need a FA acquisition in the off-season, I hate to say it, but I think that is reality.


Who were the 3,4,5 starters for Arizona's World Series team? exactly my point...you have 2 studs and they catch fire, its over.


And Remember how invincible Clemens/Pettite/Oswalt were 2 years ago (oh yea, Clemens and Oswalt pitched the same game and they lost)...and Carpenter is great, and Willis very good...but neither have shown themselves to be Schilling/Johnson in their prime. and the Cards came damn close to beating the D-Backs that year, if I remember correctly their #3 guy won a game, but Johnson lost one when Pujols took him yard.

I think you missed my point...I'm not denying Willis is better than Reyes. I'd love to have Willis, but what I'm saying is we need Reyes too...you don't trade your 2nd best pitcher for a little better 2nd best pitcher, unless you have a really good 3,4,5. Right now, the rest of our staff is hurting badly...we just traded for Jeff Weaver, which speaks for itself...they need more depth...I don't think Reyes for Willis is the answer unfortunately.
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Postby buffalobillsrul2002 » Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:25 am

D-Train hasn't even been that good this year, even since May 11 (when he blew up against the Braves). He's given up more fly balls more HR, BB/K ratio is very similar...He's just gotten more lucky hence he hasn't given up as many ER. Reyes for Willis would be a questionable trade for the Cards to make, let alone trading Reyes AND drying up their farm system for Willis. There's gotta be a reason taht Willis's name is out there on the market (he's a flash in the pan).
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Postby jealousblues » Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:18 pm

mcliffy2 wrote:
BTOWNHESS wrote:It makes a lot of sense..with a wide open N.L. and the reigning Cy Young winner and MVP on their team, they are a few pieces from taking the N.L. again. D-Train plus Carpenter in the playoffs, especially a 5 game series is scary. Also with the questions about mulder and the total destruction of Marquis and the averageness of Suppan that pitching rotation could use a huge shot in the arm. Plus look at Reyes, besides one above average start he has looked nothing like some of the young rookie hurlers to emerge this year (Liriano, Weaver, Zumaya, Verlander, J. Johnson, etc.)



If I were jocketty I'd do this in a heartbeat, Reyes might be good, i doubt great, and prospects dont always pan out, with Dontrelle you KNOW youre getting a stud.


As a cards fan, I couldn't disagree more. If you make this play, it is because you are trying to make a play this year. Wainwright is set to start next year I believe, and Reyes has shown he has the ability to be a Maddux type starter. To the contrary of your evaluation, he has had 2 below average starts (not horrible), 1 amazing start and 4 above average (2 ER or less) starts. Is Willis better? Yes, right now. But worth trading the farm, definitely not. I wouldn't trade our current #2 pitcher for a better #2 pitcher...the problem would still be our 3,4,5 guys.

From what I've heard our farm system is pretty thin now (didn't we give up the AA leader in HR for Weaver...not sure about this, but if we did, don't like it). And Duncan is our only decent power hitting prospect...I really don't think we are in a position to make a big trade. I don't think Willis will make us good enough to win the series (maybe to get there, but fall short again). We really need a FA acquisition in the off-season, I hate to say it, but I think that is reality.



im just saying Willis is younger that Reyes (slightly) already an ace for a team, was runner up for a Cy Young, and doesnt have an injury history.

The Rumor I heard did not include Wainwright.

Just Willis is > than Reyes and probibly will be for thier carears.

I like Reyes, but I just dont think he will be an Ace for a team, and likely wont come close to a Cy young. Its not like we are trading Haren for a Mulder.
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Postby jealousblues » Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:20 pm

also we gaev up like a 25 year old guy from AA, who took like 5 years to get out of A ball for Weaver. Yeah he is really hot this year, but I assume we thought he was worthless.
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Postby Smee » Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:21 pm

free wrote:
Snakes Gould wrote:there is a trade rumor thread right above you. you should probably put these rumors in there ;-D


yeah, and you should probably get a life ;-D


When the forums are organized, it makes all of our lives easier. There's nothing wrong with that.
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