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How to combat roster churners/streamers?

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Postby iftn » Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:50 pm

rainman23 wrote:Yeah, can be an effective strategy if one or two guys do it. Not at all if half the league gets into it. And at this point -- congratulations! -- whoever started this has f'ed up a potentially good league. It's an exceedingly lame strategy, for those who aren't particularly interested in the "baseball" part of fantasy baseball.

By the way -- I always subscribed to that idea that these guys were cutting their own throat, because they had to be sacrificing ERA and WHIP. Well, I've been convinced by some other players that this ain't necessarily so. If you're starting 20 guys a week, it's going to be tough for you to get a ratio that varies too far from the mean -- the mean for second tier pitchers, admittedly. You're probably not going to have a horrendous ERA or WHIP. If your opponent is starting 7 guys, a couple bad performances can hurt him badly. You're going to win these categories a healthy percentage of the time.


lol - 7? hes going to end up with probably 12 or 13 starts. maybe more. if you look at his pitching roster, he ends up with a ton of guys with -- next to their name. meaning, not on the team anymore but has stats that counted for the week (ie. had em, picked up stats, then dropped em quick).

edit: i do understand what you are saying but what sucks about this strategy backfiring is that he will AUTOMATICALLY get wins and Ks. thats 2 of the 5 categories.

the 2 that can hurt him are ERA and K/BB ratio...but since he automatically gets wins and Ks, the WORST he can do is 2-2. the ERA and K/BB is a bonus...if he gets it, great. if not, he came out even no matter what. its a no lose situation for him.

(the last pitching category is saves)
Last edited by iftn on Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby iftn » Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:51 pm

rainman23 wrote:Yep. Unless you're playing with a group of managers who know each other, and agree that the tactic is not acceptable, the key is setting up your league parameters so that it doesn't make sense. It's tough to deal with after the fact.


if i complain i bet people will be like "lighten up...its not cheating...its no big deal...its just a game...blah blah"
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Postby rainman23 » Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:18 pm

iftn wrote:
rainman23 wrote:Yeah, can be an effective strategy if one or two guys do it. Not at all if half the league gets into it. And at this point -- congratulations! -- whoever started this has f'ed up a potentially good league. It's an exceedingly lame strategy, for those who aren't particularly interested in the "baseball" part of fantasy baseball.

By the way -- I always subscribed to that idea that these guys were cutting their own throat, because they had to be sacrificing ERA and WHIP. Well, I've been convinced by some other players that this ain't necessarily so. If you're starting 20 guys a week, it's going to be tough for you to get a ratio that varies too far from the mean -- the mean for second tier pitchers, admittedly. You're probably not going to have a horrendous ERA or WHIP. If your opponent is starting 7 guys, a couple bad performances can hurt him badly. You're going to win these categories a healthy percentage of the time.


lol - 7? hes going to end up with probably 12 or 13 starts. maybe more. if you look at his pitching roster, he ends up with a ton of guys with -- next to their name. meaning, not on the team anymore but has stats that counted for the week (ie. had em, picked up stats, then dropped em quick).


In my example, I was looking at it from the perspective of the streamer -- he could easily start 20 guys in a week. A "normal" manager might only start, say, 7 guys in a week. The 20 start guy is gonna win K's, sure ought to win Wins...and in a lot of weeks, he's going to win ERA and / or WHIP, too. Because the streamer is going to invariably have mediocre ratios...but the non-streamer will sometimes have terrible ratios.
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Postby mikekim2121 » Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:51 pm

iftn wrote:
rainman23 wrote:Yep. Unless you're playing with a group of managers who know each other, and agree that the tactic is not acceptable, the key is setting up your league parameters so that it doesn't make sense. It's tough to deal with after the fact.


if i complain i bet people will be like "lighten up...its not cheating...its no big deal...its just a game...blah blah"



Correct. Deal with it. Although it may be cheap its certainly not cheating.

Most of the people complaining about it act like its some surefire strategy that gaurantees you a win. Not counting saves, its almost a gauranteed win in 2 categories while you are putting yourself in a very risky situation in the 2 other categories.
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Postby iftn » Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:39 pm

mikekim2121 wrote:
iftn wrote:
rainman23 wrote:Yep. Unless you're playing with a group of managers who know each other, and agree that the tactic is not acceptable, the key is setting up your league parameters so that it doesn't make sense. It's tough to deal with after the fact.


if i complain i bet people will be like "lighten up...its not cheating...its no big deal...its just a game...blah blah"



Correct. Deal with it. Although it may be cheap its certainly not cheating.

Most of the people complaining about it act like its some surefire strategy that gaurantees you a win. Not counting saves, its almost a gauranteed win in 2 categories while you are putting yourself in a very risky situation in the 2 other categories.


i never claimed it was cheating however, dont you think i have a right to say something about it? granted its too late to change anything now but for next season?

and i would ALWAYS guarantee myself 2 categories if it meant MAYBE losing 2 others. thats always a win-win outcome. at worst you come out 2-2 but maybe if you are lucky 3-1 or 4-0.
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Postby CBMGreatOne » Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:59 pm

Its not illegal just not ethical. Its within the bonderies of yahoo rules because I did it last year against a spot starter and I did it this year against a spot starter in a public league with fantastic results. As long as you hold on to that player for a day I think its the best strategy used to combat spot starters. Are you a spot starter?


Actually churning IS illegal insomuch as yahoo says it is against the rules but can't do anything about it. A commish should reserve the right to lock teams who pick up players specifically so that they will be on waivers when they are needed by another team.

You are only supposed to pick up players that you intend to have some active playing time. I don't remember the exact language that Yahoo uses, but I'm pretty darn sure it's against the rules.

Edit: just found Yahoo's fair play and sportsmanship rules.

1. All league-related transactions will be executed with the intent of improving the owner's team and/or its standing within the league.
2. No owner may drop or dump players from their team for any reason other than improving their own team and/or its standing within the league.
3. No owner will engage in any action that may be deemed to be collusive (two or more owners agreeing to make moves that benefit one team, but not the other).
4. No owner will make any roster moves (including waiver claims, trade proposals, etc.) whose sole purpose is to hamper the play of other owners.
5. No owner will take any action whose purpose is to, in any way, interfere with fair play in a league.

Churning in its pure form is adding a player but dropping him without ever activating him specifically so that he is on waivers while another team needs him. This is fairly obviously directly against rule nuber 4.
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Postby tianyi86 » Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:33 pm

CBMGreatOne wrote:
Its not illegal just not ethical. Its within the bonderies of yahoo rules because I did it last year against a spot starter and I did it this year against a spot starter in a public league with fantastic results. As long as you hold on to that player for a day I think its the best strategy used to combat spot starters. Are you a spot starter?


Actually churning IS illegal insomuch as yahoo says it is against the rules but can't do anything about it. A commish should reserve the right to lock teams who pick up players specifically so that they will be on waivers when they are needed by another team.

You are only supposed to pick up players that you intend to have some active playing time. I don't remember the exact language that Yahoo uses, but I'm pretty darn sure it's against the rules.

Edit: just found Yahoo's fair play and sportsmanship rules.

1. All league-related transactions will be executed with the intent of improving the owner's team and/or its standing within the league.
2. No owner may drop or dump players from their team for any reason other than improving their own team and/or its standing within the league.
3. No owner will engage in any action that may be deemed to be collusive (two or more owners agreeing to make moves that benefit one team, but not the other).
4. No owner will make any roster moves (including waiver claims, trade proposals, etc.) whose sole purpose is to hamper the play of other owners.
5. No owner will take any action whose purpose is to, in any way, interfere with fair play in a league.

Churning in its pure form is adding a player but dropping him without ever activating him specifically so that he is on waivers while another team needs him. This is fairly obviously directly against rule nuber 4.


Hes not drop/add so no one else can pick him up; hes add, play the pitcher, drop, so its not against rule 4 bc rule 4 says "sole purpose," since he played the pitcher, u cant say hes sole purpose is to prevent others from adding a player.

This strat actually does not do well you win wins and ks, but lsoe era and whip for sure.
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Postby CBMGreatOne » Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:55 pm

Yes, I know, but the person I quoted was saying that what I'm talking about wasn't against the rules. Churning is against the rules, Streaming isn't.
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Postby RRGL1 » Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:08 pm

One of my main competitors in my league loves to stream so this year I countered his streaming and I drafted/traded/picked up heavy on closers in an effort to dominate Saves, ERA, and WHIP in our 5x5 H2H.

It has worked out well. My team's YTD ERA=3.38 and WHIP=1.18. The second best team has ERA=3.81 and WHIP=1.28. Being H2H I do lose ERA/WHIP some weeks, but not usually. Plus, the #1 playoff tiebreaker in Yahoo leagues is ERA.

My current daily pitchers are
SP-J. Santana
SP-Carmona (crossing my fingers he settles down/in)
SP-McClung (TBD if stud or dud)
RP-Ryan
RP-Nathan
P-Otsuka
P-Guardado
P-Cordero/Julio
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Postby The Loveable Losers » Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:18 pm

RRGL1 wrote:One of my main competitors in my league loves to stream so this year I countered his streaming and I drafted/traded/picked up heavy on closers in an effort to dominate Saves, ERA, and WHIP in our 5x5 H2H.

It has worked out well. My team's YTD ERA=3.38 and WHIP=1.18. The second best team has ERA=3.81 and WHIP=1.28. Being H2H I do lose ERA/WHIP some weeks, but not usually. Plus, the #1 playoff tiebreaker in Yahoo leagues is ERA.

My current daily pitchers are
SP-J. Santana
SP-Carmona (crossing my fingers he settles down/in)
SP-McClung (TBD if stud or dud)
RP-Ryan
RP-Nathan
P-Otsuka
P-Guardado
P-Cordero/Julio


I did this for a large part of the season in my h2h keeper league only I didn't have closers (my draft stunk) so I ran with C. Carpenter (my only keeper SP), Shields, Rincon, Duchscherer, Soriano and Linebrink. It worked SO well that I scrapped it after 2 months because I was in contention for the playoffs in my league...I moved some picks to fill out my SP and closer roster and dumped that strategy. About 2 weeks after I rebuilt my pitching staff I got a great deal hammered out where I moved Penny, Clemens and J. Lugo in a 6 player keeper and got V. Wells so I went from a solid pitching staff to now doing a lot of streaming. Basically I've used every strategy mentioned here at one point or another for this one team this season. :)
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