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HoF Debate: Don Mattingly

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Postby Mashug » Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:16 am

bigh0rt wrote:
Mashug wrote:This is a tough one. I'd say no except when you consider who else is in there and how he compares.

Robin Yount: He was a very good player for a very long time. Great? No. That's not what the HOF is for. It's for the all time best players, or at the very least, the best players of their time. He was neither. The HOF is for Mike Schmidt, Cal Ripken, Eddie Murray, Dave Winfield and Ricky Henderson. Not Robin Yount

Reggie: In my opinion he was the most overrated player in baseball history. Sorry fellow Yankee fans, but Reggie was a one dimentional player who had a couple of great post season series. He sucked in the outfield and alienated his teamates. He was a .265 hitter and holds the alltime record for K's. I don't care about the +500 hrs. Dave Kingman just fell short and you wouldn't put him in, would you?

Compare Pucket and Mattingly: Kirby Pucket was a great player. Very simlar to Mattingly with equal numbers. As good as Kirby was in the outfield, Mattingly was better a 1B. They both played the game the way it was meant to be played. These 2 really should be tied together when you talk about HOF qualifications.One had to retire because of an injury and the other hung in there when he couldn't swing the bat because of an injury, then ultimately quit. If you put one in there, you need to put the other one in as well.

The next question is why Jim Rice isn't in there. I don't get that one.


You can't compare Mattingly's and Puckett's offensive stats. One played Centerfield while the other played First Base. That makes Puckett's a lot more impressive, and actually weakens the argument for Don's induction.

Jim Rice is on my retroactive list.



That holds true for the classic poor fielding, power hitting 1B. Not a 9 time gold glove winner with a + .300 lifetime average
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Postby Pogotheostrich » Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:51 am

rainman23 wrote:The couple people here who have suggested his peak wasn't all that special -- well, you're wrong. For two or three years in the 80's Mattingly was routinely described as the best player in MLB. He was putting up monster triple crown numbers before they were routine. If you don't think his peak years were good enough, then you don't think anyone in the middle 80's was good enough.
I think some people are misunderstanding what I meant. Given Mattingly's short career his peak was not high enough to get into the HOF IMO.

13 seasons - 1 bad year, 5 not so good years, 3 good years and 4 great years. For me to put him in the HOF for those 4 seasons he would have to have towered over ever other hitter in MLB. He didn't. He was among the best if not the best for those 4 years but that isn't enough IMO.
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Postby bigh0rt » Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:15 pm

I wonder where blankman, Strasil, AT, et al are? :-?
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Postby nsulham » Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:22 pm

bigh0rt wrote:I wonder where blankman, Strasil, AT, et al are? :-?


Not to pile on here or anything ( ;-7 ) but I would have thought even a cursory defense of a former hero would have been in order but maybe not?

I know if it was someone I grew up cheering for and felt strongly about, I'd at least throw in an obligatory support post, even if I felt the guy had no shot at the HoF. I don't know the first thing about statistics and any of that stuff but if it's a guy who was the face of the franchise for a good amount of time and one of the most revered players in franchise history, I would at least TRY to defend his case.

But to each his own ;-D
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Postby noseeum » Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:29 pm

Mashug wrote:Reggie: In my opinion he was the most overrated player in baseball history. Sorry fellow Yankee fans, but Reggie was a one dimentional player who had a couple of great post season series. He sucked in the outfield and alienated his teamates. He was a .265 hitter and holds the alltime record for K's. I don't care about the +500 hrs. Dave Kingman just fell short and you wouldn't put him in, would you?


I don't think you realize how much of a defensive era the 70s were. You should go back and check Reggie compared to his contemporaries.

12 time all star.
10 times top 10 in OPS. 6 times top 5.
10 times top 10 in RBI.
11 times top ten in adjusted ops +, 4 times number 1.

He also happened to be the leader of the A's when they won two World Series in a row.

The guy's a stud. No question.
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Postby great gretzky » Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:09 pm

FWIW, I am not a major stat head, fantasy baseball is what got me addicted to the real thing.

As far as HOF in any sport goes, I have a pet (as yet unrefined) Supernova theory. I don't like that someone can be a "b" talent for long , while an "A" talent for not as long. Not that this would happen at all, but this is hypothetical.

If some dude came around and hit 350 hr's in 5 years, should he get in? On one hand, the career was short. On the other, no one in the history of the game would have done that, and he would have clearly been the best guy to step on the field against his contemporaries and his historical competition for that span.

I think longevity has place, but I think pure explosion does too. Granted, the explosion can't be so condensed as to be a flash in the pan, but at the same time if you are the epicenter of the sport for a decent amount of time, I think that merits just as much consideration as some guy who always put up nice, but not great stats for a long time. I think this is more compelling when someone left the game for nonsporting reasons: death, cancer, disease, called to war or something like that.

The NFL hall of fame comparison is weird. In some respects, it can be harder to make it than the baseball HOF, other cases easier. It is stunning how few wide receivers actually make it. Even more egregious is how few offesnive lineman make it, even though everyone considers them like gold in real life. when you consider that, and the fact that nfl players have a much shorter careers on average, I'm not sure there is a comparison.

Also, I don't think postseason success should be a detraction from a player, since a hitter could hit a 162 home runs a season, and his team could still be pretty bad. BUT, if you have the post season success, that should also count, I think its more like "extra credit"--after all you did perform at a high level against the best competition in a high pressure situation.

I just don't know if mattingly stacks up in the real pantheon here. he was a really nice player, but he didn't have any real explosions over a three year period or so, and he didn't have longevity. I think he needed a few more totally awesome seasons to overcome the longevity problem.
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Postby SwingandaMiss » Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:00 pm

how much does he make as batting coach?
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Postby cy23young » Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:26 pm

First, I want to say I am a Mattingly fan. I dont think he will make the HOF. His career was cut short and does not have HOF numbers at first base. With that said, Puckett should not be in the HOF. Both were the leaders on the respective teams. Both have comparable numbers that were lacking at their position. Puckett does have 2 more rings but he also had a better surrounding team. You have to admit, Mattingly played with some bad teams, which hurt his numbers. I also think in the 90's some people were using steriods, maybe...... So, its not really fair to compare ops numbers with the 80's and 90'. I still dont think he makes the HOF as a baseball fan. As a Yankee fan, I hope he does.
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Postby Mashug » Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:30 pm

noseeum wrote:
Mashug wrote:Reggie: In my opinion he was the most overrated player in baseball history. Sorry fellow Yankee fans, but Reggie was a one dimentional player who had a couple of great post season series. He sucked in the outfield and alienated his teamates. He was a .265 hitter and holds the alltime record for K's. I don't care about the +500 hrs. Dave Kingman just fell short and you wouldn't put him in, would you?


I don't think you realize how much of a defensive era the 70s were. You should go back and check Reggie compared to his contemporaries.

12 time all star.
10 times top 10 in OPS. 6 times top 5.
10 times top 10 in RBI.
11 times top ten in adjusted ops +, 4 times number 1.

He also happened to be the leader of the A's when they won two World Series in a row.

The guy's a stud. No question.


I rememeber him very well. Watched him play and loved what he did for the Yanks is the post season. It's hard to keep him out, but the man made it in almost unanimously on his first ballot. That's not right. Again, when he played it was all about Reggie and to hell with his teamates. Hit .300 once (barely) and he was a terrible outfielder. I remmeber the trotting after balls in the outfeild very well. I also remember defying the manager when asked to take pitches and move runners over. I don't think jackasses like that belong in the HOF.
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Postby Lofunzo » Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:30 am

BritSox wrote:
acsguitar wrote:I really don't care much about the HOF.

It doesn't tell me much about the player other than he has great numbers.


Mattingly numbers wise should not be in. However, he was a class act and was a hero for millions of new yorkers at least.

I wish the hall took into account personal actions and being a team leader.


It does, or at least everyone assumes it will for Jeter and Ripken, and did do for Puckett. Plenty of players get a boost for this sort of thing. Even with that boost, Mattingly's miles outside.


Jeter and Ripken will get in because of their numbers. ;-)

Whatever he gains for being a 'team leader' and his 'personal actions' he loses times two for his 'handlebar moustache'.


Unless I am mistaken, I think that you have a different definition of a handlebar moustache or you have the wrong Mattingly.

Unfortunately, he's not in. Probably would have been if not for injury but he doesn't make the cut.
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