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HoF Debate: Don Mattingly

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Postby Pogotheostrich » Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:29 am

noseeum wrote:He had an amazing six year run. Whoever said his peak was not high enough, WHAT? His peak is certainly high enough. His 1985 year is amazing. Don't compare it to stats now. Compare it to stats then. Top 10 in pretty much every offensive category, and number 1 in many of them. Plus, the gold glove.
I don't think he peak was high enough. Only 2 top 10 finishes in OBP and only 5 top 10 finishes in SLG. Like I said 84-87 he was great but that is only 4 years and while his OPS+ during those years are really good they aren't great for a 1B.

OPS+
1984-156
1985-156
1986-161
1987-146
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Postby BritSox » Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:31 am

The Big Stick wrote:Well this is a pretty simple decision for me. If the hall of fame has Kirby Puckett in why not "Donnie Baseball".

http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mattido01.shtml Don Mattingly's numbers are very much coparable with those of Kirby's. What seperates the two is the ring which Mattingly never won.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/puckeki01.shtml


So, basically, you're saying he's the same as a guy who was a very dubious HoF selection, minus one big achievement?

To me, he's a no-brainer exclusion. A first baseman who broke 1.000 OPS precisely once, and didn't come close to hitting any of the HoF milestones. He only played 11 full seasons, and you need to absolutely dominate to get in on that short a career. He didn't, end of story. Of the other guys in the debate, all of whom have better counting stats and

Mattingly's career OPS is 829. For comparison to other guys in this series:

The Big Hurt 995 (OK, he's not been done, but surely will be, and is a close contemporary)
Edmonds 920 (played longer, and in CF)
McGriff 886
Justice 878
Kent 860
Jeter 838 (Shortstop)
Biggio 807
Ripken 787 (SS)


AND he had the shortest career of any of them, and achieved no major milestones. He's not even close.
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Postby George_Foreman » Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:43 am

He didn't play in as big of an offensive era, but I still don't think he should be in. With few big "counting" milestones (400+ doubles is nothing to sneeze at, but that's still just a combined 682 extra-base hits), he'd have to have pretty oustanding "rate" numbers. And unfortunately, his are just what I would call "very good".
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Postby 9er Fan » Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:42 pm

He was the most dangerous hitter in baseball for a few seasons and a great defensive first baseman, but unfortunately his chronic bad back keeps him out IMO.
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Postby noseeum » Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:04 pm

BritSox wrote:
The Big Stick wrote:Well this is a pretty simple decision for me. If the hall of fame has Kirby Puckett in why not "Donnie Baseball".

http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mattido01.shtml Don Mattingly's numbers are very much coparable with those of Kirby's. What seperates the two is the ring which Mattingly never won.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/puckeki01.shtml


So, basically, you're saying he's the same as a guy who was a very dubious HoF selection, minus one big achievement?

To me, he's a no-brainer exclusion. A first baseman who broke 1.000 OPS precisely once, and didn't come close to hitting any of the HoF milestones. He only played 11 full seasons, and you need to absolutely dominate to get in on that short a career. He didn't, end of story. Of the other guys in the debate, all of whom have better counting stats and

Mattingly's career OPS is 829. For comparison to other guys in this series:

The Big Hurt 995 (OK, he's not been done, but surely will be, and is a close contemporary)
Edmonds 920 (played longer, and in CF)
McGriff 886
Justice 878
Kent 860
Jeter 838 (Shortstop)
Biggio 807
Ripken 787 (SS)


AND he had the shortest career of any of them, and achieved no major milestones. He's not even close.


He was fourth overall in the 80s in OPS, so you definitely have to take the era into account. Who was he behind? Only Mike Schmidt, Wade Boggs, and George Brett. Interesting thing about those three guys? They all happen to be first ballot HOFers.

Don't discount how great Mattingly was by comparing him to the guys in the 90s. The 80s were a much different era.
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Postby HOOTIE » Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:11 pm

BronXBombers51 wrote: He just didn't have a long enough career to be a HOFer (although how Kirby Puckett is in and Donnie isn't, is a mystery to me). Donnie certainly has a case, based on the hardware he collected, his peak, and the fact that other people equal or worse than him got in, but overall, I'd have to say no, he's not a HOFer. :-/


No HOF. You compare Don to HOF 1b, and Kirby to HOF cf, there's the difference. Don doesn't match up to HOF 1b.
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Postby schmidty » Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:11 pm

The Big Stick wrote:Well this is a pretty simple decision for me. If the hall of fame has Kirby Puckett in why not "Donnie Baseball".

http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mattido01.shtml Don Mattingly's numbers are very much coparable with those of Kirby's. What seperates the two is the ring which Mattingly never won.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/puckeki01.shtml


Well, winning 2 WS rings is not a minor factor (especially given that the Twins were anything but a powerhouse team that people can use the "he wasn't needed since they were so good" argument that we heard with Jeter). You also have the difference between putting up those numbers at 1B vs CF (for at least a lot of his career). Career trajectory is a big thing too -- Mattingly had a brief stretch of HoF-level play surrounded by more years where he was below-average for his position. Puckett put up 10+ consistent good/great years. And of course, there's a lot more sympathy from voters because of a career ending due to a disease/illness vs one that ended from baseball-related injuries. I think Puckett has a stronger resume, but both are suspect.

Anyway, I'll say "no" to Mattingly. 4 years of elite play in a short career, with no rings just isn't good enough. More years than not, Mattingly was a below-average hitter for his position. That's just not HoF to me.
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Postby BritSox » Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:16 pm

Well, he was very much a contemporary of Ripken's. And he played half his career in the 90s (six full seasons in each). If you want to give him credit for how far above average his 80s years were, you also have to respect that his 90s ones (again, half his career) were average at best.

It's not like we're talking a guy who came up in '80 and retired in '92. He had four great years (which, yes, were some of the best seasons of the 80s), two pretty damn good ones, and six completely average ones. Injury or no, that's not the resume of a HoFer.
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Postby The Big Stick » Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:18 pm

noseeum wrote:He was fourth overall in the 80s in OPS, so you definitely have to take the era into account. Who was he behind? Only Mike Schmidt, Wade Boggs, and George Brett. Interesting thing about those three guys? They all happen to be first ballot HOFers.

Don't discount how great Mattingly was by comparing him to the guys in the 90s. The 80s were a much different era.


Interesting how those guys are in but not Donnie baseball.... is this contributed to him playing in NY?
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Postby noseeum » Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:25 pm

The Big Stick wrote:
noseeum wrote:He was fourth overall in the 80s in OPS, so you definitely have to take the era into account. Who was he behind? Only Mike Schmidt, Wade Boggs, and George Brett. Interesting thing about those three guys? They all happen to be first ballot HOFers.

Don't discount how great Mattingly was by comparing him to the guys in the 90s. The 80s were a much different era.


Interesting how those guys are in but not Donnie baseball.... is this contributed to him playing in NY?


No, those three clearly had way better careers than Mattingly. He shouldn't make it, but I don't think someone should go comparing his OPS to Frank Thomas as the criteria for him NOT getting in.

Mattingly was one of the top 5 players in all of baseball for about 6 years. Not enough, but still impressive. Gotta love the guy, esp when you consider he declined because of injury.
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