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Johnson, Olsen, Reyes, Cain - TORN

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Postby Galt » Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:06 am

That is a meaningless description.

What do you mean, exactly. I contend that you are pulling that phrase out of your ass.

explain what you mean in detail.

Are you calling "stuff" velocity or movement or something different altogether?
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Postby rmande09 » Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:00 am

As a baseball "guru" and a guy who seems to know quite a bit about prospects, how exactly do you not know what "stuff" means? It is a very common term used to describe a pitchers repertoire - the pitches he throws - and how successful they are. It is a combination of velocity, movement, and how each pitch complements the rest of his repertoire.

You've never heard an announcer say, "he has great stuff today," or "his stuff isn't really there today"?

I really don't think it was necessary for you to be rude to me about it. I'm sorry that it is a VERY common term, I had no idea that you had actually never heard of it.
C: Pierzynski
1B: Pujols
2B: Altuve
3B: Miggy
SS: HanRam
OF (x3): CarGo, M. Bourn, D. Jennings
UTIL (x2): E. Encarnacion, C. Hart
BN: Cuddyer, C. Ross, J. Montero

SP: Price, Gallardo, T. Hudson, Lester
RP: Chapman, Jansen, Rodney, Putz, Cishek, Bailey
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Postby TurdFerguson » Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:52 am

rmande09 wrote:I have Extra Innings as well (great package) and have seen Verlander, Cain, Olsen, and Liriano a lot. Every time I've seen Cain he sits between 93-95 and tops at 97-98. His two-seam is around 92-93. I never said his change was a plus-pitch, I said it was slightly above-average. It is slowly improving as he gains confidence in it. His fastball and curveball are both strikeout pitches and ++.

If Cain had control, he would be excellent. He holds opposing hitters to a .219 average, can strike guys out, and keeps the ball in the park (minus 4 in one start). He's just 21 and has more than a good shot of developing good control.

In 5 years, I'd say the best 5 pitchers from this class will be Liriano, Verlander, Cain, King Felix, and Lester.
I agree with pretty much everything you said with the exception of Lester.I think Olsen has much better stuff( have both).Lester just plays on a much better team
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Postby rmande09 » Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:03 pm

I may be slightly biased, but I think Lester is much better. His fastball is better, his slider/cutter is very good, he has an excellent curveball, and his changeup is a good show-me pitch. I think Lester is a better pitcher, both have similar stuff except Lester has a plus-curveball.
C: Pierzynski
1B: Pujols
2B: Altuve
3B: Miggy
SS: HanRam
OF (x3): CarGo, M. Bourn, D. Jennings
UTIL (x2): E. Encarnacion, C. Hart
BN: Cuddyer, C. Ross, J. Montero

SP: Price, Gallardo, T. Hudson, Lester
RP: Chapman, Jansen, Rodney, Putz, Cishek, Bailey
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Postby rmande09 » Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:22 pm

In all actuality, the fifth spot will probably be between Hamels, Billingsley, Zumaya, Reyes, and Weaver.
C: Pierzynski
1B: Pujols
2B: Altuve
3B: Miggy
SS: HanRam
OF (x3): CarGo, M. Bourn, D. Jennings
UTIL (x2): E. Encarnacion, C. Hart
BN: Cuddyer, C. Ross, J. Montero

SP: Price, Gallardo, T. Hudson, Lester
RP: Chapman, Jansen, Rodney, Putz, Cishek, Bailey
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Postby TurdFerguson » Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:34 pm

rmande09 wrote:I may be slightly biased, but I think Lester is much better. His fastball is better, his slider/cutter is very good, he has an excellent curveball, and his changeup is a good show-me pitch. I think Lester is a better pitcher, both have similar stuff except Lester has a plus-curveball.
I think you are dead wrong.Olsen has a nasty slider and a sick change.Olsen also get its up between 94-95.Lester works between 90-92. Olsens pitches are all better than Lesters.Lester does not throw a slider and his curveball is really nothing great its just good.Lester just plays behind a championship team and one of the best Ds in baseball.I have both so I am really not biased.Lester stuff just really does not impress me
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Postby TurdFerguson » Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:35 pm

rmande09 wrote:In all actuality, the fifth spot will probably be between Hamels, Billingsley, Zumaya, Reyes, and Weaver.
Not a fan of Reyes or Weaver and Zumaya will be a closer.
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Postby rmande09 » Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:53 pm

Ummm... Have you seen Lester pitch? His fastball is 93-95, and gets up to 96. His two-seam has a lot of run on it and sits around 91-92. His cutter is disgusting. And his curveball is better than good. It's not great, but it's a K pitch versus lefties.

The only pitch Olsen has Lester in is his change.
C: Pierzynski
1B: Pujols
2B: Altuve
3B: Miggy
SS: HanRam
OF (x3): CarGo, M. Bourn, D. Jennings
UTIL (x2): E. Encarnacion, C. Hart
BN: Cuddyer, C. Ross, J. Montero

SP: Price, Gallardo, T. Hudson, Lester
RP: Chapman, Jansen, Rodney, Putz, Cishek, Bailey
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Postby rmande09 » Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:59 pm

And it just varies in opinion. Both are similar pitchers. But you can't say Olsen is impressive and Lester not. You don't come in as a 22 year old lefty and hold AL offenses to a .228 BAA and average 7.5 K/9.

I forgot Papelbon. He has the stuff and mentality to be a dominant closer or a 1A starter.
C: Pierzynski
1B: Pujols
2B: Altuve
3B: Miggy
SS: HanRam
OF (x3): CarGo, M. Bourn, D. Jennings
UTIL (x2): E. Encarnacion, C. Hart
BN: Cuddyer, C. Ross, J. Montero

SP: Price, Gallardo, T. Hudson, Lester
RP: Chapman, Jansen, Rodney, Putz, Cishek, Bailey
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Postby Galt » Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:03 pm

rmande09 wrote:As a baseball "guru" and a guy who seems to know quite a bit about prospects, how exactly do you not know what "stuff" means? It is a very common term used to describe a pitchers repertoire - the pitches he throws - and how successful they are. It is a combination of velocity, movement, and how each pitch complements the rest of his repertoire.

You've never heard an announcer say, "he has great stuff today," or "his stuff isn't really there today"?

I really don't think it was necessary for you to be rude to me about it. I'm sorry that it is a VERY common term, I had no idea that you had actually never heard of it.


A) I never claimed to be a guru
B) It doesn't matter what I have heard or what I know. You keep saying that Cain has great 'stuff" and you even ranked which pitchers have great "stuff". Yet, I've asked you now twice to describe what "stuff" is, and you have deflected it both times.

What do you mean by "stuff", specifically? How on earth do you expect anyone to believe your argument when you can't even quantify what you are talking about?
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