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Johnson, Olsen, Reyes, Cain - TORN

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Postby TurdFerguson » Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:56 am

rmande09 wrote:Olsen has good potential but comparing it to Verlander's and Cain's is crazy. Olsen could be a 1A, not a true ace but close. Cain and Verlander can be aces with Cy Young potential.
You sound like a Cain homer.IMO Olsen could be as good as anyone of those pitchers mentioned.How is it crazy to compare those three guys?Verlanders K/9 is scary and has never pitched over 130INN.Olsen has better numbers than Cain and is a lefty.Olsen throws in the mid 90s with a sick change and a nasty slider.I like Cain but he has some really bad control problems.
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Postby rmande09 » Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:51 pm

TurdFerguson wrote:
rmande09 wrote:Olsen has good potential but comparing it to Verlander's and Cain's is crazy. Olsen could be a 1A, not a true ace but close. Cain and Verlander can be aces with Cy Young potential.
You sound like a Cain homer.IMO Olsen could be as good as anyone of those pitchers mentioned.How is it crazy to compare those three guys?Verlanders K/9 is scary and has never pitched over 130INN.Olsen has better numbers than Cain and is a lefty.Olsen throws in the mid 90s with a sick change and a nasty slider.I like Cain but he has some really bad control problems.


I was talking ceiling's. Like I said, Cain has top 5 stuff in baseball. He has a high-90s fastball that explodes at the end, a hammer curve that is very good, and a high-80s change. His fastball and hook are plus-plus pitches, and his change is above average. Cain has a ways to go to reach his ceiling, but his ceiling is as high as any other pitcher in baseball.

Olsen is very good. I'm not saying otherwise. But his stuff and make-up does not project him nearly as well as Verlander and Cain. Could he end up being better? Sure. He has very good stuff.

What's so impressive about Verlander is that he has always had a high-K rate. Through college, through his 120 minor league innings. He got to the Bigs and learned how to pitch. He lets guys put it in play so he can last deep into games. He averages nearly 7 innings per start despite a short leash. His K rate has slowly gone up over the season. I don't know what there is to not like about a guy who has that kind of stuff, that kind of makeup, and that kind of ability to pitch. And he's only a year out of college and 23.
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Postby rmande09 » Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:54 pm

You also mentioned Verlander has never thrown over 130 innings. Olsen has never thrown more than 136. So that argument is fairly weak.
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Postby TurdFerguson » Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:53 pm

rmande09 wrote:You also mentioned Verlander has never thrown over 130 innings. Olsen has never thrown more than 136. So that argument is fairly weak.
I never said he has
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Postby rmande09 » Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:58 pm

TurdFerguson wrote:
rmande09 wrote:You also mentioned Verlander has never thrown over 130 innings. Olsen has never thrown more than 136. So that argument is fairly weak.
I never said he has


Then what relevance does that have? Just a random statement? It doesn't support your argument...
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Postby TurdFerguson » Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:59 pm

rmande09 wrote:
TurdFerguson wrote:
rmande09 wrote:Olsen has good potential but comparing it to Verlander's and Cain's is crazy. Olsen could be a 1A, not a true ace but close. Cain and Verlander can be aces with Cy Young potential.
You sound like a Cain homer.IMO Olsen could be as good as anyone of those pitchers mentioned.How is it crazy to compare those three guys?Verlanders K/9 is scary and has never pitched over 130INN.Olsen has better numbers than Cain and is a lefty.Olsen throws in the mid 90s with a sick change and a nasty slider.I like Cain but he has some really bad control problems.


I was talking ceiling's. Like I said, Cain has top 5 stuff in baseball. He has a high-90s fastball that explodes at the end, a hammer curve that is very good, and a high-80s change. His fastball and hook are plus-plus pitches, and his change is above average. Cain has a ways to go to reach his ceiling, but his ceiling is as high as any other pitcher in baseball.

Olsen is very good. I'm not saying otherwise. But his stuff and make-up does not project him nearly as well as Verlander and Cain. Could he end up being better? Sure. He has very good stuff.

What's so impressive about Verlander is that he has always had a high-K rate. Through college, through his 120 minor league innings. He got to the Bigs and learned how to pitch. He lets guys put it in play so he can last deep into games. He averages nearly 7 innings per start despite a short leash. His K rate has slowly gone up over the season. I don't know what there is to not like about a guy who has that kind of stuff, that kind of makeup, and that kind of ability to pitch. And he's only a year out of college and 23.
I have seen Cain pitch in just about every start(have mlb extra inn).I have a much different opinion of him.He is not even close to top 5 stuff imo.He does not consistently throw in the high 90s like you are making it sound either.His change is very average from what I have seen.I just like Olsen and Verlander more.Cain is not even in the same league as Liriano
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Postby rmande09 » Sat Jul 22, 2006 4:39 pm

I have Extra Innings as well (great package) and have seen Verlander, Cain, Olsen, and Liriano a lot. Every time I've seen Cain he sits between 93-95 and tops at 97-98. His two-seam is around 92-93. I never said his change was a plus-pitch, I said it was slightly above-average. It is slowly improving as he gains confidence in it. His fastball and curveball are both strikeout pitches and ++.

If Cain had control, he would be excellent. He holds opposing hitters to a .219 average, can strike guys out, and keeps the ball in the park (minus 4 in one start). He's just 21 and has more than a good shot of developing good control.

In 5 years, I'd say the best 5 pitchers from this class will be Liriano, Verlander, Cain, King Felix, and Lester.
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Postby rmande09 » Sat Jul 22, 2006 4:46 pm

As far as top 5 stuff, I've seen too much baseball this season and in terms of pure stuff, I'd go:

1. Liriano
2. Santana
3. Peavy
4. Pedro
5. King Felix
6. Rich Harden
7. Zambrano
8. Kazmir
9. Cain
10. Webb/Verlander

I may have missed someone, so please don't crucify me.
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Postby Galt » Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:13 pm

"stuff"

what does that mean?
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Postby rmande09 » Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:36 pm

Galt wrote:"stuff"

what does that mean?


Pitches. Take out control, ability to "pitch," and makeup.
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