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Barry Bonds - you better read this before you post about him

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Postby LCBOY » Mon Aug 25, 2003 6:45 pm

JRRNeiklot wrote:
LCBOY wrote:
JRRNeiklot wrote:
LCBOY wrote:
DK wrote:fifth of all, ruth hit a ball an estimated 625 feet. id like to see bonds do that.


Another urban legend. There is no evidence that Ruth did this other than stories.



Hmmm. Bonds hit 73 in one season. How do I know this? I read it in a ....story.


No. There is video of Bonds hitting #73. Tens of thousands of people saw it happen in PERSON. Many many reporters reported it in newspapers, ESPN, etc. When Ruth supposedly hit 625 ft what day was it? Who measured the distance? Where was it reported? Was it reported by someone who was there? Or did they just hear it from someone else? If you are going to claim Ruth hit a 625 ft HR you need to site a source or show some evidence it actually happened. We can't accept that it happened because you say it happened.



I never claimed he did. And the film is just s story in another medium.

My point was that that's all the evidence we have of anything happenning. A story.


Again not true. There are about 40,000 peoplw who saw Bonds hit HR #73. These people are first person accounts of the event happening. I saw it myself on TV. Can you site the source where you read Ruth hit a 625 ft HR? I am really interested to read it. ;-D
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Re: Bonds Vs. Ruth No Comparision

Postby LCBOY » Mon Aug 25, 2003 6:49 pm

Lofunzo wrote:He gots much love in any discussions that I have but I would assume why he doesn't come up much in discussions of THE BEST ever is his lack of HR's. Other than that, he was a great player. ;-D


Whic his exactly the point I've been trying to make in several posts prior. The reason Wagner doesn't have a huge HR total is because he played in the Dead Ball era. It was practically impossible to hit HRs before 1920. Does anyone really think that if Ruth had played in the Dead Ball era that he would have 714 HRs? If Wagner had been born 20 years later he would have been right there with Ruth in terms of power. Honus was da man! ;-D
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Postby JRRNeiklot » Mon Aug 25, 2003 11:15 pm

LCBOY wrote:
JRRNeiklot wrote:
LCBOY wrote:
JRRNeiklot wrote:
LCBOY wrote:
DK wrote:fifth of all, ruth hit a ball an estimated 625 feet. id like to see bonds do that.


Another urban legend. There is no evidence that Ruth did this other than stories.



Hmmm. Bonds hit 73 in one season. How do I know this? I read it in a ....story.


No. There is video of Bonds hitting #73. Tens of thousands of people saw it happen in PERSON. Many many reporters reported it in newspapers, ESPN, etc. When Ruth supposedly hit 625 ft what day was it? Who measured the distance? Where was it reported? Was it reported by someone who was there? Or did they just hear it from someone else? If you are going to claim Ruth hit a 625 ft HR you need to site a source or show some evidence it actually happened. We can't accept that it happened because you say it happened.



I never claimed he did. And the film is just s story in another medium.

My point was that that's all the evidence we have of anything happenning. A story.


Again not true. There are about 40,000 peoplw who saw Bonds hit HR #73. These people are first person accounts of the event happening. I saw it myself on TV. Can you site the source where you read Ruth hit a 625 ft HR? I am really interested to read it. ;-D



I am not the poster who claimed Ruth hit a ball that far. But if he did, there were probably a few people who saw that too. You're still missing the point. The point is the only way we have of knowing jack about either player is from a "story." A narrative from an old timer holds just as much water as a video. It's just a different medium.
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Postby wrveres » Mon Aug 25, 2003 11:34 pm

JRRNeiklot wrote: A narrative from an old timer holds just as much water as a video. It's just a different medium.


yep ... and the earth is flat too ..
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Re: Bonds Vs. Ruth No Comparision

Postby Lofunzo » Mon Aug 25, 2003 11:44 pm

LCBOY wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:He gots much love in any discussions that I have but I would assume why he doesn't come up much in discussions of THE BEST ever is his lack of HR's. Other than that, he was a great player. ;-D


Whic his exactly the point I've been trying to make in several posts prior. The reason Wagner doesn't have a huge HR total is because he played in the Dead Ball era. It was practically impossible to hit HRs before 1920. Does anyone really think that if Ruth had played in the Dead Ball era that he would have 714 HRs? If Wagner had been born 20 years later he would have been right there with Ruth in terms of power. Honus was da man! ;-D


While I'm sure that he would have had more than 101 homers in a different era, we are talking about a difference of 613 homers. ;-)

On a side note, my main power discussion centers around this.......Ruth outhomered other teams, sometimes more than double. I don't care what era you are in, that is impressive. Dead ball, live ball, it was the same players during the same seasons. Relatively speaking, it doesn't matter what era you are in. That is impressive. ;-D
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Re: Bonds Vs. Ruth No Comparision

Postby wrveres » Tue Aug 26, 2003 12:20 am

Lofunzo wrote:On a side note, my main power discussion centers around this.......Ruth outhomered other teams, sometimes more than double. I don't care what era you are in, that is impressive. Dead ball, live ball, it was the same players during the same seasons. Relatively speaking, it doesn't matter what era you are in. That is impressive. ;-D


I never want to Knock on Ruth ... but what was pointed out earlier, I believe on this thread... was that Ruth Changed the way the game was played ... Because of Ruth swinging for the fences, Rules had to be changed. Nothing shows that more than this link here ..

Baseball Almanac

Almost Immediatly after Ruths arrival .. homeruns totals went up and stayed up and not just by the Babe. I am sure it took time for other owners to find there own "Babe Ruth". In 1918 Ruth led the league with 8 .. The whole league .. By 1922 Hornsby had 42. so you see, Ruth changed the way the game was played. But, we also know that in 1931 .. Towards the end of Babes Career,
They added the "Ground Rule Double" rule .. Up until that point, it was considered a Homerun ..
I am still trying to find at least an estimate of how many HR's were actually doubles over his career, I am guessing close to 100. Anybody have a link?

I also found it interesting .. that since 1920 ... a high 40 homerun total seemed to be consistent for the league lead, no matter the batter, no matter the year, no matter the era. For almost 80 years. Up until Mcguire, Sosa, Bonds ..

I just wanted to clarify ... the "Ruth out Homered all teams" thingee .. yes he did .. but not for very long.
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Re: Bonds Vs. Ruth No Comparision

Postby Lofunzo » Tue Aug 26, 2003 2:18 am

wrveres wrote:I just wanted to clarify ... the "Ruth out Homered all teams" thingee .. yes he did .. but not for very long.


It seems like we are getting a little closer to agreeing to disagree or something like that. ;-D You bring up some good points but IMHO, whether it was for 1, 2, 10, or 20 years, outhomering entire teams is 1 great feat. If they gave me a stick and a tennis ball and 600 feet fences, if I got 1 HR and no one else got any, that would be impressive. Maybe a reach but you get the point.

wrveres wrote:was that Ruth Changed the way the game was played.


And that is 1 of the reasons why I feel that he's the best. He changed the game.

Good discussion that we have here. Everyone's opinions are welcome. :-)
Last edited by Lofunzo on Tue Aug 26, 2003 2:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby thehat » Tue Aug 26, 2003 2:30 am

Well, here's mine. Bonds is the best player of this generation. There's little question in my mind that he would have been an All Star level performer in any era.

That said, I still think the guy is a cementhead. One would think that growing up around great ambassadors like Wille Mays might have made him more appreciative of his fans, but that's never been the case. As for those who defend his rude behavior by trying to pin the blame on the media, take a history lesson. Bonds was a creep going back to his early days with the Pirates. He has always been demeaning not only to the paying customers and the press, but he's also condescending toward those he played the game with. He recently managed to even insult his supposed pal from the Pittsburgh days, when he took a shot at Bobby Bonilla while discussing the shortcomings of Albert Pujols.

An all time great player, albeit one with a miserable personality.
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Re: Bonds Vs. Ruth No Comparision

Postby wrveres » Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:01 am

Lofunzo wrote:It seems like we are getting a little closer to agreeing to disagree or something like that. ;-D You bring up some good points but IMHO, whether it was for 1, 2, 10, or 20 years, outhomering entire teams is 1 great feat. If they gave me a stick and a tennis ball and 600 feet fences, if I got 1 HR and no one else got any, that would be impressive. Maybe a reach but you get the point.


oh and one last thing ..
It wasn't until 1925 that the minimum distance for a homerun was set at 250 feet. The right field fence in Babe Ruth's Yankee Stadium was only 295 feet. The far left field corner was even closer to home plate, but the field extended to near 500 feet in center. From left to right, the dimensions today run from 318 feet, to 408 feet, to 314 feet.

But I will agree to disagree :-)

Damn if I am not learning a ton about Ruth too ... I love it ..
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Postby Arlo » Tue Aug 26, 2003 7:44 am

Just some random details in a very interesting debate...

I haven't been able to confirm any ground-rule doubles by Ruth that counted as home runs (at any rate, 100 seems like far too high a number, considering how rare ground-rule doubles are). Ruth did lose a home run in 1918 through the sudden-death home run rule, though (it was scored as a triple).

And here's the list of other players who outhomered or tied other teams:

1931: Chuck Klein 31, Mel Ott 29 - Reds 21
1936: Mel Ott 33 - Dodgers 33
1948: Joe DiMaggio 39, Joe Gordon 32 - Senators 31
1949: Ted Williams 43 - White Sox 43

Ruth outhomered all other teams in the league in 1920 and 1927. 8-o

One source for a possible 600'+ home run by Ruth can be found here, for instance (I believe SI also ran the story). Interesting read...

And definitely agreed with wrveres: I'm learning a lot, too! ;-D
Last edited by Arlo on Tue Aug 26, 2003 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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