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Expansion in a keeper league?

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Expansion in a keeper league?

Postby pokerplaya » Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:55 am

I need some advice.

In one of my keeper leagues, we are currently 3 years in, however, after year one, we had the loss of 4 original owners. We had 14 teams to start, so instead of wisely finding at least 2 new owners we decided to go with 10 teams, and then we redrafted from scratch.

I firmly believe, as do a few other owners that I've spoke with at length that there is not enough depth in the league now, meaning it is generally hard to make deals as the FA list usually has a viable option for just about any position.

I've been discussing expansion as a possible solution, as making the rosters any deeper than they are already has already been shot down. My question to my distinguished peers here at the Cafe, how could we go about this successfully?

Another owner and I were discussing possible ways of implementing it, and we came up a rough idea of letting all teams protect 3 players (we keep 10 currently) and then have each of the two teams go back and forth until they each have drafted someone off each team. We then could protect 3 or so more, and they could pick again, until they had 10 initial keepers.

Is this impossible? Could it work in theory with a little tinkering (this was a very rough and hypothetical suggestion)? Has anyone successfully added 2 teams to a 10 team league? This is a great league, and while I'd love to add teams I don't want to disturb the balance by expanding and then having it blow up in our face.

Obviously, before we make any decision, I'd like to have 100% approval of expansion so there is a very good chance this will never see the light of day. I still, however, would love to hear any and all suggestions you may have for me. Thanks.
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Postby Matthias » Sat Jul 15, 2006 12:44 pm

oh, i'm sure it's possible. you just have to think of a way to do it fairly. but i don't think your current idea is fair (no offense). the way you would have to do it is to allow the expansion teams to, "draft" off of the current teams.

so the way i would approach it is think of it as a snake draft.

1) every current team announces one protected player (this is essentially round one of their draft).
2) each of the expansion teams are allowed two picks, taking turns, but only one off of any given team.
3) then every existing team is allowed to protect two remaining players (this would essentially be the second and third rounds of drafting).
4) the expansion teams are allowed to each select two more players, but aren't allowed to pick anyone selected from any of the teams they select from in this step or in step 2. (at this point, each new team has four players and have picked one player from 8 of the 10 existing teams).
5) every existing team announces the protection of two more players.
6) the expansion teams must first select one player from each of the two squads that have not been picked off of yet and then can select a player off of any team, provided they're not the same team. (at this point, each new team has six players and have picked one player from eight teams and two players from two teams).
7) each existing team announces the protection of two more players.
8) the expansion teams are allowed to select two players from any of the 8 teams who have only lost one so far.

this results in the expansion teams now have 8 players, six existing teams have 8 players, and four existing teams have nine players. i would then hold a supplementary draft, round 0 essentially, giving first pick to the expansion team who picked second, second pick to the expansion team who picked first, and then picks to each of the six teams who lost 2 players, in order of worst finish this season.

then conduct the draft as you would normally, just giving the expansion teams first pick.

the merits of this system is that it mimics a redraft while still letting people keep players. it just puts the expansion teams at the end of the snake. and strong teams still have an advantage because once they've been picked off, they're safe again until they've protected 5 of their top 6 players. so it's not really like a redraft because if the top team has 6 players in the top 30, they still have five of them instead of, in a normal draft, only 2 or 3.

and if you make it too favored to existing teams, you'll probably have a problem finding new owners and even if you do, they'll be deeply unsatisfied with starting significantly behind everyone else and will just never have a chance to really catch up with 10 keepers.

take it or leave it. but i think this would be reasonably fair to all parties involved and even if you don't use this system, to answer your first question, yes, it would be possible to add teams. the devil is only, as they say, in the details.
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Postby bellings » Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:57 pm

I'm in a 10-team, keep-7 league, and this year we also agreed that it is too shallow. I think that we are going to add 2 teams next year by still allow the established teams to keep-7, and the expansion teams get the 1st 14 picks. Now, this is a free league, which I think is key, because otherwise the expansion teams get screwed.

There is typically enough talent left unprotected to make a good team. When I took over a team a couple years ago, I didn't keep any, and with a little skill and a lot of luck, I managed to place 2nd.
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Postby Matthias » Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:04 pm

bellings wrote:I'm in a 10-team, keep-7 league, and this year we also agreed that it is too shallow. I think that we are going to add 2 teams next year by still allow the established teams to keep-7, and the expansion teams get the 1st 14 picks. Now, this is a free league, which I think is key, because otherwise the expansion teams get screwed.

There is typically enough talent left unprotected to make a good team. When I took over a team a couple years ago, I didn't keep any, and with a little skill and a lot of luck, I managed to place 2nd.


alright. although i know i wouldn't join your league with that system. everyone gets to essentially do 7 rounds of drafting and then i get to do my rounds 1-7 at round 8? no thanks. :-P
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Postby bellings » Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:07 pm

Matthias wrote:
bellings wrote:I'm in a 10-team, keep-7 league, and this year we also agreed that it is too shallow. I think that we are going to add 2 teams next year by still allow the established teams to keep-7, and the expansion teams get the 1st 14 picks. Now, this is a free league, which I think is key, because otherwise the expansion teams get screwed.

There is typically enough talent left unprotected to make a good team. When I took over a team a couple years ago, I didn't keep any, and with a little skill and a lot of luck, I managed to place 2nd.


alright. although i know i wouldn't join your league with that system. everyone gets to essentially do 7 rounds of drafting and then i get to do my rounds 1-7 at round 8? no thanks. :-P


It's not as bad as it seems. It's actually sort of fun to build a team from scratch. And hey, it's free.
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Postby Matthias » Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:13 pm

bellings wrote:
Matthias wrote:
bellings wrote:I'm in a 10-team, keep-7 league, and this year we also agreed that it is too shallow. I think that we are going to add 2 teams next year by still allow the established teams to keep-7, and the expansion teams get the 1st 14 picks. Now, this is a free league, which I think is key, because otherwise the expansion teams get screwed.

There is typically enough talent left unprotected to make a good team. When I took over a team a couple years ago, I didn't keep any, and with a little skill and a lot of luck, I managed to place 2nd.


alright. although i know i wouldn't join your league with that system. everyone gets to essentially do 7 rounds of drafting and then i get to do my rounds 1-7 at round 8? no thanks. :-P


It's not as bad as it seems. It's actually sort of fun to build a team from scratch. And hey, it's free.


but you're not building it from scratch. you're building it from leftovers. and it may be free, but it is time. and if you find someone to take you up on it, that's fine. but i wouldn't commit any time to something where i'm starting at a severe handicap to everyone else. what's the point?

honestly, i think all you'll accomplish is finding someone to sign up, take a team, lose interest b/c he's severely at a loss vs. the old teams, and then abondon the team 1/3 of the season through. but i'm sort of cynical on these things. moreso b/c i end up being right most of the time.
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Postby Niffoc4 » Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:46 am

Expansion is tough to do, but these systems seem pretty fair... In a leauge I joined last year, I didn't ask the expansion rules before I joined, and found out that the 16 already existing teams got to keep 10 keepers +2 rookies before I got to pick my 5 expansion keepers. Then, in the regular draft the other 2 expansion teams and I got an extra pick until we caught up. And both our normal picks and our extra picks were at the end of each round in a non-snake draft. Sounds like I would be screwed doesn't it? Well last year I finished 12 out of 19 and this year I am in 3rd of 20 (we added a team) . I could be even better too if I had been patient with Jonny Gomes, Pronk and Grady Sizemore last year...
So, expansion will work itself out within a season or two, especially if teams can only hold onto keepers for a limited number of years. The main thing is getting dedicated owners who are willing to work at it.
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