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Postby bwagner112 » Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:49 pm

I didn't say anything about Jeter's numbers...defense...anything else. This thread is about who is a lock and love him or hate him, Jeter is going to walk into the hall on the first ballot...because well...he is Derek Jeter.
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Postby noseeum » Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:57 pm

joshheines wrote:Let's then look at Mr. Jeter's contemporaries. Jeter has played from 1995-2006. Here are the top SS who played at least 4 contemporaneous years with Jeter. Even comparing Jeter to his contemporaries, he's never won a Silver Slugger.

1. A-Rod
2. Nomar Garciaparra
3. Miguel Tejada
4. Barry Larkin
5. Cal Ripken
6. Omar Vizquel
7. Edgar Renteria

I'd rank them, taking defense into account.

1. A-Rod
2. Ripkin
3. Larkin (similar numbers to Jeter, but put up a lot of them before the offensive explosion and had a vastly superior defense than Jeter)
4. Garciaparra
5. Jeter
6. Tejada
7. Renteria
8. Vizquel

So, IMO, Jeter is in the top tier compared to his contemporaries, but hardly on top.


Snore. People love to bash Jeter. How can you put Larkin or Garciaparra above Jeter? Larkin had the talent, but he was injured too often. His numbers per 162 are good, but when you only play 110-120 games a year so many times, you're knocked down many notches. Once Jeter's career his done, his numbers will destroy Larkin.

Same thing for Nomar. Not enough years to even be in the discussion.

Tejada, I could see him being placed above Jeter.

Regardless, Jeter is a lock.
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Postby Pogotheostrich » Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:07 pm

joshheines wrote:Ok, so let's change the perameters of the discussion to who do you think is a lock to who do you think DESERVES to be a lock.

What about JEter then? This way no one can fall back on the media as a stat to get their players (Jeter or otherwise) in.


If we are doing it that way then Jeter needs to keep it up for a few more years IMO. He only has 10 full seasons and while they are all above average for a SS, I only see on fantastic season. If he keeping going like this for 3-5 more years or has another outstanding season he has my vote.
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Postby bellings » Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:08 pm

I usually hate when people say, "If player A is in the hall, then player B should be...", but I'm gonna say it.

If Kirby Puckett is in the hall, then Jeter is a stone cold lock. And this is coming from a Twins fan. Puckett never would have made it in without '87 and '91. Jeter led his team to twice as many rings, and holds the record for most post-season hits. Jeter is in.
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Postby Bloody Sox » Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:12 pm

Pogotheostrich wrote:
joshheines wrote:Ok, so let's change the perameters of the discussion to who do you think is a lock to who do you think DESERVES to be a lock.

What about JEter then? This way no one can fall back on the media as a stat to get their players (Jeter or otherwise) in.


If we are doing it that way then Jeter needs to keep it up for a few more years IMO. He only has 10 full seasons and while they are all above average for a SS, I only see on fantastic season. If he keeping going like this for 3-5 more years or has another outstanding season he has my vote.


As a full fledged Jeter-hater (every time I see him I want to punch him through the TV), I give him props for being the leader of the best baseball dynasty of the last 30-40 years. When I said earlier that he didn't deserve to be in, it was based on his stats today. All he needs to do is hold steady for a few more years and he can take that ridiculous spin-leap-throw-from-the-hole-to-1B into the hall.
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Re: Active HOF locks

Postby J35J » Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:06 pm

bceagles04 wrote:Barry Bonds- Lock
Mike Piazza- Lock

Ken Griffey Jr.- Lock: When all is said and done he will be over 600 career HR. He is at 555 now...lets say 570 after 06. Then even if he plays 2 more years and hits 15 HR in each, he is over 600, and that is rarified air. .292 avg. and over 1500 RBI dont hurt.

Sammy Sosa- Sammy deserves a very hard look. His numbers save that avg. are very similar to Griffey's whom we consider a lock. Steroids, corked bat, or clean, he put up 3 60 HR seasons which is unbelievable. I say he is in, but not a lock

Frank Thomas- Lock. He has missed out on some decent production the last few years due to injury, but he has had a hell of a career. SEVEN straight years of 100 runs, 25 HR, 100 RBI and a .300 avg. I haven't tried, but see if you can find someone who has equaled this that still plays today.

Larry Walker- I say no. He was great for many years in Coors. But his numbers were inflated quite a bit. Not really close to any great marks, so I say no.

Jeff Bagwell- He has great numbers. Unfortunately he never won a WS and that may or may not hurt him. Right now he is 50/50

Rafael Palmiero- I hate steroids and what they do to the game so I won't comment. He has the numbers though

Clemens- Lock
Maddux-Lock
Johnson-Lock
Pedro - Lock
Smoltz- 177 wins, 154 saves. Thats gotta be enough for a lock. To be able to from a great starter to a dominant closer and back speaks volumes.
Brown- Great pitcher, but he just doesn't really stick out as much as others. I'm not sure why.
Mussina- He has a better shot than Schill. He has a much better record, and he is younger. He could get 250 wins.
Schilling- Tough call. He has great numbers, got the WS...but something tells me he won't get in.
Glavine- Lock. Closing in on 300 wins = a lock
Mariano- Lock. Most dominant closer in 10 years.
Hoffman- In 11 full years he has ammassed over 430 saves while being one of the most dominant closers in baseball. Lock

Two hitters you left on were Pudge and Manny, I think both are lock's.


He actually holds the record for most consecutive seasons with .300avg 20hr 100rbi 100r 100walks in MLB history! ('91-'97)

;-D


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Postby RAmst23 » Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:03 pm

I'm pretty sure Jeter is going to make the Hall (I know we're talking about locks right now, but I like the Jeter debate). He's 32 years old, and has over 2000 hits now, and something that many people are forgetting, has over 1200 runs. It looks like Jeter will have something like 1800 Runs and 1500 RBIs when said and done. He'll be a 300/300 guy (most likely) with a career OPS of .849 so far, and he's a SS? I'd put him in.
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Postby rainman23 » Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:15 pm

bellings wrote:I usually hate when people say, "If player A is in the hall, then player B should be...", but I'm gonna say it.

If Kirby Puckett is in the hall, then Jeter is a stone cold lock. And this is coming from a Twins fan. Puckett never would have made it in without '87 and '91. Jeter led his team to twice as many rings, and holds the record for most post-season hits. Jeter is in.


I'll never understand how Puckett made it in there. Certainly not in the rarefied air of his first year of eligibility. Don Mattingly was my favorite player, and I never argued that he belonged. Injuries just prevented him from having enough top-flight seasons. But when Puckett waltzed in suddenly it looked like Donny had a case.
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Postby rainman23 » Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:23 pm

RAmst23 wrote:I'm pretty sure Jeter is going to make the Hall (I know we're talking about locks right now, but I like the Jeter debate). He's 32 years old, and has over 2000 hits now, and something that many people are forgetting, has over 1200 runs. It looks like Jeter will have something like 1800 Runs and 1500 RBIs when said and done. He'll be a 300/300 guy (most likely) with a career OPS of .849 so far, and he's a SS? I'd put him in.


LOL. I almost mentioned Jeter's name at the beginning of this thread. But knew as soon as his name came up it would take over the thread. Clearly when his career is over it's going to stack up with the best shortstops that ever played. He's not a lock for me today but in 5 years it's going to be a no-brainer. If you don't think so, you're just completely enamoured with the home run, or you can't see past your biases. [FYI, RAmst23 -- I'm obviously not talking to you here.]
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Postby blankman » Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:33 pm

joshheines wrote:God, just when I get out you drag me back in. Derek Jeter? A lock. Can you say Overhype? Say it with me, "Overhype." Derek Jeter will be extremely lucky to get in the HOF (he will because he is in NY and a media darling, but doesn't deserve it).

From the top. Jeter has finished lower than 10th in MVP voting exactly twice. He's finished in the top ten in OPS once. Despite his phenomenal AVG, he's finished in the top 10 in OBP 4 times. He's had 2 seasons of .400 OBP and 1 season of .500 + SLG.

And, please, don't bring up Mr. Jeter's defense. He's been a below average defender his entire career and doesn't deserve either of his gold gloves. Up until the last two years Jeter's defense actually cost the Yankees about 20 runs per year.

Also, don't bring up Mr. Clutch post-season. It's ridiculous media-hype. Jeter's regular season numbers: .314/.386/.461. His post-season numbers: .307/.379/.463. Couldn't be more identical unless they were identical. If you really want to nit-pick, the majority of his post-season numbers were accumulated in the League Division series. His League Championship numbers are deplorable: .262/.339/.405. And his WS numbers are below his career averages: .302/.375/.434.

Simply, by the numbers, Jeter does not belong in the HOF. He's neither SS with a slick glove, nor the clutch post-season player the media portrays him as.


Sounds like you're just a little jealous of him.

As DK said, with a SS, you compare him to his contemporaries, not the league. Jeter should rank behind only A-Rod, a HOF lock, of the era's shortstops. Claiming the injury-riddled Nomar and Larkin ahead of him makes no sense.
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