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HoF Debate: Jim Edmonds

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Edmonds

Postby swingline » Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:33 pm

OK, forget the DEFENSE completely. Who has been a better offensive centerfielder in the majors over the past five years? I want names.
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Postby mak1277 » Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:11 pm

JRRNeiklot wrote: Edmonds and Mays shouldn't either. Willie wouldn't even be talked about for making catches Edmods makes because he'd just camp out under them and make them look routine.


I'd much rather have a guy who could "camp out under them" than a guy making diving catches.
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Re: Edmonds

Postby ukrneal » Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:13 pm

swingline wrote:OK, forget the DEFENSE completely. Who has been a better offensive centerfielder in the majors over the past five years? I want names.


If you have to use only the past five years, there are only a handfull that even played the position consistently. Damon, Jones, and Williams come to mind. But if you expand the search a few years, Griffey would come into the equation too. Probably there are others, but none come to mind.

Maybe it's not right, but I rarely think of OF in their specific position, but compare across all the OF positions since they are pretty interchangeable. You see a lot of players these days who play more than one of them.
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Re: Edmonds

Postby Lofunzo » Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:22 pm

swingline wrote:OK, forget the DEFENSE completely. Who has been a better offensive centerfielder in the majors over the past five years? I want names.


Somebody's feisty, especially with their 1st post here. ;-) My worry is that you are going to use what I mentioned before about his position. His power numbers are better than just about any other CF over that time. That said, someone like Damon has probably been a better offensive player over the past 5 years. He's just the first guy that came to mind. And why 5 years?? Why not longer?? Mattingly proved that a great 5 years won't get you into the HOF on it's own.

As for his defense, I don't think that he is as good as some people think. There is more to it than getting on SportsCenter. Flashy always impresses the eye. It's just like years ago when I almost came to blows with a friend of mine. He said that Rey Ordonez was a great defensive SS. He was good but made the flashy plays while letting routine balls go through his legs. I said that Vizquel was better. After some back and forth, we almost went at it. Obviously, I was right but the flashiness must be what made him feel that way.

Welcome to the Cafe. ;-D
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Re: Edmonds

Postby Lofunzo » Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:24 pm

ukrneal wrote:
swingline wrote:OK, forget the DEFENSE completely. Who has been a better offensive centerfielder in the majors over the past five years? I want names.


If you have to use only the past five years, there are only a handfull that even played the position consistently. Damon, Jones, and Williams come to mind. But if you expand the search a few years, Griffey would come into the equation too. Probably there are others, but none come to mind.

Maybe it's not right, but I rarely think of OF in their specific position, but compare across all the OF positions since they are pretty interchangeable. You see a lot of players these days who play more than one of them.


I understand what you mean but you have to look at CF differently because few will put up the monster power numbers anymore that are required to get in. Just like you can't include C with the other IF positions.
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Postby swingline » Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:28 pm

There is a reason why you can't find great offensive guys at CF. It's a skill position where a player has to be a plus defensively. More like SS or 2b than LF, RF, or 1b.

Show me the stats more than just names over the past 5, make it 6 years. Who is the best offensive centerfielder over this time?

Why should we expand it? If a player is THE premier offensive player at a skill position like CF for 6 years (and we're not sure he's done), isn't that a good argument for being in the HOF alone?
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Mattingly

Postby swingline » Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:30 pm

1) Did Mattingly play a skill position?

2) Was he the best offensive player at that position over those 5-6 years?
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Postby swingline » Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:36 pm

Thanks for the welcome. I've been lurking for years but had to get in on this debate.

People are way too dismissive of Edmonds and what he has done.
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Re: Mattingly

Postby ukrneal » Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:53 pm

swingline wrote:1) Did Mattingly play a skill position?

2) Was he the best offensive player at that position over those 5-6 years?


Being the best at a position for 5-6 years is not enough for me. It may be the swing vote, but it really doesn't sway me. And I'm willing to think about CF as needing a bit more skill, but I don't necessarily agree with that either. It needs someone who is either quick, speedy, and/or agile. At least, it helps.

Incidentally, his career fielding percentage is about even with the league. While his range appears to be 10% above average. Someone like Mays was slightly above average in Fielding percentage, but 30+% better in range. That sort of percentage is more convincing to me. (I think I'm reading the results correctly, but I'm sure someone will tell me if I'm not).

Pretty interesting discussion, as he has been more successful than I realized, but he isn't quite there yet. Of course, he's still got time.
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Postby Lofunzo » Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:58 pm

swingline wrote:Thanks for the welcome. I've been lurking for years but had to get in on this debate.

People are way too dismissive of Edmonds and what he has done.


I am not dismissive of him. I actually defended him by mentioning the position that he plays and the lack of numbers from it. I also don't have the energy right now to find the averages of some other CF over that time. As for Mattingly, since you mentioned defense, so will I. He was 1 of the best defensive 1B of all-time. Mattingly was definitely the best hitting 1B in the league over those seasons. He started to tail off at the end and guys like McGriff and Clark were coming on but, overall, he was the best. Just like your case for Edmonds. He might not have been the best during an individual season but you are talking about a stretch.

Keep in mind that I am not saying that Mattingly is a HOF player. I am just showing how 5-6 great years doesn't guarantee anything.
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