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HoF Debate: Jim Edmonds

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Postby noseeum » Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:42 pm

Pogotheostrich wrote:
Tavish wrote:
noseeum wrote:amazing center fielder, yes, but it's pretty much beyond debate the Andruw Jones is better than him. It's almost beyond debate that Jones is the greatest defensive center fielder ever.


He probably wouldn't even make my Top 5 All-Time. He is than Edmonds and in the same range as Hunter and Cameron.


I'm also wondering how it is almost beyond debate that Andruw is better when Edmonds has the better OBP, SLG% and OPS+.


This was purely defensive. And yes, it's beyond debate. :-D
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Postby bigh0rt » Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:05 pm

Pogotheostrich wrote:It is funny how Edmonds fielding gets overrated and his hitting gets underrated.


What I fully expected to happen. That's why I thought he'd be a good candidate for this debate.
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Postby j_d_mcnugent » Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:05 pm

DK wrote:
Who's talking about one catch? I'm talking career-wise. Career Mays made 2.57 plays per game in the outfield in an era where the average outfielder made 1.91, including 195 outfield assists and 60 double plays. Edmonds made 2.50 plays per game in an era where the average center fielder made 2.24, including 110 outfield assists and 26 double plays. Mays owns Edmonds in the field. Jones is also a better fielder than Edmonds is.


i dont want to argue about who is better because i dont think its edmonds, but what does plays per game have to do with it? isnt that more or less dependent upon your pitching staff?
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Postby DK » Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:12 pm

j_d_mcnugent wrote:
DK wrote:
Who's talking about one catch? I'm talking career-wise. Career Mays made 2.57 plays per game in the outfield in an era where the average outfielder made 1.91, including 195 outfield assists and 60 double plays. Edmonds made 2.50 plays per game in an era where the average center fielder made 2.24, including 110 outfield assists and 26 double plays. Mays owns Edmonds in the field. Jones is also a better fielder than Edmonds is.


i dont want to argue about who is better because i dont think its edmonds, but what does plays per game have to do with it? isnt that more or less dependent upon your pitching staff?


Somewhat, but not really. It's the same way with every position; Ozzie Smith has far more plays/game than any SS in history because he was simply that good. There are lots of balls that most fielders wouldn't get to that Mays does, which is why he ranks so high.

Also, your pitching staff doesn't help you make those outfield assists.
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Postby stevekahuda » Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:13 pm

Surely you must be joking about Torii Hunter or Puckett being in Edmonds class. Edmonds is not out of position, he gets to balls that are doubles when anyone else is out in CF. Torii jumps really high at the wall, and that's nice, but it doesn't put him in Edmond's class. Some of his highlights fall into the Ozzie Smith realm of "How'd he do that?" I watch a decent amount of Edmonds living here in Chicago, and he is one of the most complete centerfielders to ever play the game. People are saying he's not as good as Andruw Jones or Willie Mays, but that's pretty darned good company. I would take that. I think if Ozzie Smith gets in for his defense, then Edmonds has a legitimate argument for induction as will A Jones. As for CFs that are as good as Edmonds who's careers intersect, you can't do a top 5. Only A Jones has a spot on that list.

That being said, I don't think he gets in. But if he does, its partly because of his defense
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Postby DK » Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:14 pm

Also IIRC Mays didn't field a fly-ball staff.
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Postby j_d_mcnugent » Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:18 pm

DK wrote:Also IIRC Mays didn't field a fly-ball staff.


fair enough.

i guess i just dont really like defensive stats in general. unfortunately that makes generational comparisons pretty difficult (not that i think edmonds is as good as mays).
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Postby d18Mike » Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:35 pm

I think great defense is a great tie-breaker for HOF voting where OFs are concerned but I'd say the ratio is 80/20 hitting to fielding.

Here are the most similar hitters to Edmonds from a career standpoint, position neutral:

Chipper Jones (913)
Tim Salmon (906)
Shawn Green (898)
Dick Allen (894)
David Justice (887)
Jason Giambi (886)
Mo Vaughn (883)
Albert Belle (880)
Carlos Delgado (879)
Ralph Kiner (876) *

Similarity Scores

Similarity scores are not my concept. Bill James introduced them nearly 15 years ago, and I lifted his methodology from his book The Politics of Glory (p. 86-106). To compare one player to another, start at 1000 points and then you subtract points based on the statistical differences of each player.

Batters

One point for each difference of 20 games played.
One point for each difference of 75 at bats.
One point for each difference of 10 runs scored.
One point for each difference of 15 hits.
One point for each difference of 5 doubles.
One point for each difference of 4 triples.
One point for each difference of 2 home runs.
One point for each difference of 10 RBI.
One point for each difference of 25 walks.
One point for each difference of 150 strikeouts.
One point for each difference of 20 stolen bases.
One point for each difference of .001 in batting average.
One point for each difference of .002 in slugging percentage.
To this there is a positional adjustment. Each position has a value, and you subtract the difference between the two players position. James just uses primary position, but I computed an average position for players who had more than one primary position. (See Ernie Banks)

240 - Catcher
168 - Shortstop
132 - Second Base
84 - Third Base
48 - Outfield (James distinguishes, but I don't have that data incorporated at the moment)
12 - First Base
0 - DH
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Postby Lofunzo » Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:01 pm

j_d_mcnugent wrote:
d18Mike wrote:
Strip away the Sportscenter highlight reels and there are a lot of players who have remarkably similar if not superior stats who will likely never be in a HoF Debate thread.


but are those players center fielders? to me, it boils down to defense/differentiating between center and corner outfielders. there are better outfielder bats than edmonds, but not many better center field bats. if you think there is a significant difference between CF and LF, then edmonds has a chance. if you just want to focus on offensive stats then he has no chance.

i dont think he will make it in. his career seems to be on the down swing. if he had another 2-3 peak years he would be in. if he spent the bulk of his career in boston or NY he would likely have more support.


Great point about his position. If he was a corner OF, he would have no chance. I still don't think that he will make it but his position certainly helps him out here.
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Postby JRRNeiklot » Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:45 pm

Edmonds should be in the Hall if he was 0-for his career. The man can flat play the outfield, despite having an average (at best) arm. Anyone who thinks Jones is better is on crack. Jones shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence. For that matter, Edmonds and Mays shouldn't either. Willie wouldn't even be talked about for making catches Edmods makes because he'd just camp out under them and make them look routine.
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