HoF Debate: Jim Edmonds - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2014 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to Baseball Leftovers

HoF Debate: Jim Edmonds

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Postby noseeum » Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:27 pm

Edmonds is a way better defensive center fielder than Pucket.
noseeum
Major League Manager
Major League Manager


Posts: 1697
Joined: 1 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby j_d_mcnugent » Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:33 pm

mak1277 wrote:
I don't disagree in principle, but the flip side to this arguement is the reduced weight of his gold gloves (potentially). In each of the 6 years that Edmonds won his NL gold gloves, Andruw Jones also won a GG. Now, I personally believe that the GG's in the outfield should be handed out by position (LF, CF, RF). If we are distinguishing by position, you must ask yourself if Edmonds would have 6 GG's in the NL if there were only one each year given to a CF? I'm not purporting to know the answer, but the question is valid if you are going to place a big differentiation between CF and corner OF's.

I'm also not saying that GG's should be a relevant measure in the first place, but we all know that quantifiable awards do play a role.


i agree, and i dont think edmonds deserved a gold glove last year regardless of how you want to spread them out.

my point wasnt exactly related to defense. there are better center fielder defenders than edmonds. however, there arent many centerfielders who can hit like edmonds, regardless of their defensive prowess. if you compare edmonds offensively to other centerfielders who would rank really high. if you compare him offensively to outfielders in generally he is middle of the pack. his HOF argument is that he is an above average bat at a position usually stocked with below average bats. i dont think thats enough to get him, but it helps his case if you differentiate between center fielder and just outfield.
j_d_mcnugent
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
CafeholicCafe Ranker
Posts: 3766
Joined: 1 May 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: bored at work

Postby mak1277 » Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:45 pm

j_d_mcnugent wrote:
mak1277 wrote:
I don't disagree in principle, but the flip side to this arguement is the reduced weight of his gold gloves (potentially). In each of the 6 years that Edmonds won his NL gold gloves, Andruw Jones also won a GG. Now, I personally believe that the GG's in the outfield should be handed out by position (LF, CF, RF). If we are distinguishing by position, you must ask yourself if Edmonds would have 6 GG's in the NL if there were only one each year given to a CF? I'm not purporting to know the answer, but the question is valid if you are going to place a big differentiation between CF and corner OF's.

I'm also not saying that GG's should be a relevant measure in the first place, but we all know that quantifiable awards do play a role.


i agree, and i dont think edmonds deserved a gold glove last year regardless of how you want to spread them out.

my point wasnt exactly related to defense. there are better center fielder defenders than edmonds. however, there arent many centerfielders who can hit like edmonds, regardless of their defensive prowess. if you compare edmonds offensively to other centerfielders who would rank really high. if you compare him offensively to outfielders in generally he is middle of the pack. his HOF argument is that he is an above average bat at a position usually stocked with below average bats. i dont think thats enough to get him, but it helps his case if you differentiate between center fielder and just outfield.


I'm with you in your line of thinking.

One problem I have with Edmonds' canidacy...was he ever even the best player on his own team? My memory of his days in Anaheim is foggy, but I don't think he's ever been the best player on the Cards in his time with them. I'm not saying that's a deal breaker, because it's tough luck (in this sense) playing alongside Pujols...but Edmonds just doesn't jump out at me as a "great" player. Certainly good, far above average, but he doesn't smell like a HoF'er to me.

Plus, he wears the half shirts...ugh
mak1277
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy Expert
Posts: 4569
(Past Year: 5)
Joined: 14 Nov 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Northern Virginia

Postby BritSox » Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:54 pm

In the 'how does he compare' stakes:

Better-hitting Centerfielders EVER by career OPS:

Cobb
DiMaggio
Mays
Griffey Jr.

Edmonds is 35th all-time amongst all players.

I don't know what adjusted OPS says (anyone got it?), but that surprises me a little. Perhaps i might be in favour if he hits to his career numbers for another two seasons.
Image
BritSox
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicMock(ing) DrafterLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 5223
Joined: 5 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: You don't care, do you? No... because you're unconscious.

Postby Tavish » Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:02 pm

BritSox wrote:In the 'how does he compare' stakes:

Better-hitting Centerfielders EVER by career OPS:

Cobb
DiMaggio
Mays
Griffey Jr.


*cough cough* Mickey Mantle

*edit*

I'm pretty sure guys like Speaker, Averill, Snider, and Hack Wilson are above Edmonds in career OPS as well.
Last edited by Tavish on Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image

Bury me a Royal.
Tavish
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterWeb Supporter
Posts: 11067
(Past Year: 34)
Joined: 3 May 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby Pogotheostrich » Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:02 pm

Smee wrote:Lets see if we can name five better CF from the era, admittedly I'm no baseball historian but I'll start it off:

1. Kirby Puckett
2. Griffey
3.
4.
5.

Puckett and Edmonds only shared one full season so it is hard to compare but I'd take Edmonds over Puckett. He has a better OBP, SLG% and OPS+ than Puckett.
Image
Pogotheostrich
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyePick 3 Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 21585
(Past Year: 355)
Joined: 9 Dec 2002
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: St. Louis

Postby BritSox » Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:37 pm

Tavish wrote:
BritSox wrote:In the 'how does he compare' stakes:

Better-hitting Centerfielders EVER by career OPS:

Cobb
DiMaggio
Mays
Griffey Jr.


*cough cough* Mickey Mantle

*edit*

I'm pretty sure guys like Speaker, Averill, Snider, and Hack Wilson are above Edmonds in career OPS as well.


I went through the list, and picked out everyone whose position was listed as CF, then double-checked the bios on those listed as OF. Somehow, I had it in my head Mantle was a RFer as my main image of him is in that great '51 team with Joe D, and overlooked that he played most of his career in center. Mea culpa.

Averill was certainly above Edmonds, (by one point) but listed as OF.

Snider and Speaker were behind Edmonds. Wilson didn't have enough AB to qualify.
Image
BritSox
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicMock(ing) DrafterLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 5223
Joined: 5 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: You don't care, do you? No... because you're unconscious.

Postby Tavish » Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:48 pm

BritSox wrote:
Tavish wrote:
BritSox wrote:In the 'how does he compare' stakes:

Better-hitting Centerfielders EVER by career OPS:

Cobb
DiMaggio
Mays
Griffey Jr.


*cough cough* Mickey Mantle

*edit*

I'm pretty sure guys like Speaker, Averill, Snider, and Hack Wilson are above Edmonds in career OPS as well.


I went through the list, and picked out everyone whose position was listed as CF, then double-checked the bios on those listed as OF. Somehow, I had it in my head Mantle was a RFer as my main image of him is in that great '51 team with Joe D, and overlooked that he played most of his career in center. Mea culpa.

Averill was certainly above Edmonds, (by one point) but listed as OF.

Snider and Speaker were behind Edmonds. Wilson didn't have enough AB to qualify.


http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/OPS_career.shtml

You're right about Snider, for some reason I was thinking he was slightly above Speaker and Averill.

Here are the OPS+ measures you were looking for.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/OPSplus_career.shtml
Image

Bury me a Royal.
Tavish
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterWeb Supporter
Posts: 11067
(Past Year: 34)
Joined: 3 May 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby Smee » Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:05 pm

Pogotheostrich wrote:
Smee wrote:Lets see if we can name five better CF from the era, admittedly I'm no baseball historian but I'll start it off:

1. Kirby Puckett
2. Griffey
3.
4.
5.

Puckett and Edmonds only shared one full season so it is hard to compare but I'd take Edmonds over Puckett. He has a better OBP, SLG% and OPS+ than Puckett.


You know, I'm looking at both of their career stats right now and aside from Puckett's post season heroics there isn't an awful lot to distinguish one from the other. In fact, Edmonds has better career numbers in just about every meaningful catagory.

I think Pucket's admittance to the HOF was largely influenced by his role as an ambassador for the game.
Image
Go 'Topes!
Smee
College Coach
College Coach

User avatar

Posts: 321
Joined: 30 May 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: BLADOW!

Postby ttwarrior1 » Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:10 pm

yes edmonds will make it because this isnt his last year and his longetivity will end up in the long run putting him over the top. I got to st louis games and he is just awesome. In my opinion the best defensive outfiedler in the history of baseball as well.
ttwarrior1
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor

Pick 3 Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 606
Joined: 9 Jun 2003
Home Cafe: Football

PreviousNext

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: buiviopaufamp and 13 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Today's Games
Thursday, Jul. 31
(All times are EST, weather icons show forecast for game time)

Chi White Sox at Detroit
(1:08 pm)
Colorado at Chi Cubs
(2:20 pm)
St. Louis at San Diego
(3:40 pm)
Philadelphia at Washington
(7:05 pm)
Seattle at Cleveland
(7:05 pm)
LA Angels at Baltimore
(7:05 pm)
Cincinnati at Miami
(7:10 pm)
indoors
Toronto at Houston
(8:10 pm)
Minnesota at Kansas City
(8:10 pm)
Pittsburgh at Arizona
(9:40 pm)
Atlanta at LA Dodgers
(10:10 pm)

  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact