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HoF Debate: Jeff Bagwell

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Postby ThatDude » Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:30 pm

DK wrote:
ThatDude wrote:I don't think Bagwell should get within sniffing distance of the HoF, even in a weak year.


Damn, you just hate everyone, don't you?


Since I don't think someone is worthy of the Hall, I must hate that person?

Interesting conclusion you've jumped to.

I don't think Grace is worthy of the Hall, and he is my #2 favorite player ever, but appearently I hate him too.
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Postby Belle4Hall88 » Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:30 pm

joshheines wrote:
Belle4Hall88 wrote:Belle isnt in and he has better #'s than Bags


Belle was filthy hitter in four seasons, three more above average seasons, and two more pretty good seasons. Belle played awful defense.

Belle only had 4 HOF seasons and his career was not spectacular outside of those seasons.


Over a 162 game spand:

Player A: .297 AVG, 114 R, 33 HR, 115 RBI, .408 OBP, .540 SLG
Player B: .295 AVG, 103 R, 40 HR, 130 RBI, .369 OBP, .564 SLG

Player A is Bagwell, player B is Belle. Not saying that Belle is head and shoulders better than bagwell, but I think he is slightly. Also, for the guy that said Belle was horrible defensivly, he did lead the league in OF assist a few times ;-D
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Postby RynMan » Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:33 pm

I say yes.
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Postby noseeum » Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:39 pm

Bagwell will probably make it, but I'm on the fence for him.

There are SO MANY first basemen from the last 20 years with great stats, that it's tough to throw them all in. I'd put him above Palmeiro though, steroids or not.
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Postby Tavish » Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:44 pm

Belle4Hall88 wrote:Over a 162 game spand:

Player A: .297 AVG, 114 R, 33 HR, 115 RBI, .408 OBP, .540 SLG
Player B: .295 AVG, 103 R, 40 HR, 130 RBI, .369 OBP, .564 SLG

Player A is Bagwell, player B is Belle. Not saying that Belle is head and shoulders better than bagwell, but I think he is slightly. Also, for the guy that said Belle was horrible defensivly, he did lead the league in OF assist a few times ;-D


Bagwell did that over 2100+ games which includes his decline phase and spent a great deal in one of the worst hitting NL stadiums in history. Belle left the game at age 33 and played 1500+ games in the AL (200+ games at DH) in fairly neutral home parks. There is a difference between being great and being great over a long period of time.

Bagwell through age 33 per 162 games
Belle through age 33 per 162 games
.303 AVG, 119 R, 35 HR, 121 RBI, .415 OBP, .554 SLG, .969 OPS, 157 OPS+
.295 AVG, 103 R, 40 HR, 130 RBI, .369 OBP, .564 SLG, .933 OPS, 143 OPS+
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Postby DK » Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:46 pm

ThatDude wrote:
DK wrote:
ThatDude wrote:I don't think Bagwell should get within sniffing distance of the HoF, even in a weak year.


Damn, you just hate everyone, don't you?


Since I don't think someone is worthy of the Hall, I must hate that person?

Interesting conclusion you've jumped to.

I don't think Grace is worthy of the Hall, and he is my #2 favorite player ever, but appearently I hate him too.


You take things way too literally.

Also, rather than say "Sniff the Hall not", feel like expressing why? I'd like to show you why you're wrong.
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Postby ThatDude » Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:06 pm

DK wrote:
ThatDude wrote:
DK wrote:
ThatDude wrote:I don't think Bagwell should get within sniffing distance of the HoF, even in a weak year.


Damn, you just hate everyone, don't you?


Since I don't think someone is worthy of the Hall, I must hate that person?

Interesting conclusion you've jumped to.

I don't think Grace is worthy of the Hall, and he is my #2 favorite player ever, but appearently I hate him too.


You take things way too literally.

Also, rather than say "Sniff the Hall not", feel like expressing why? I'd like to show you why you're wrong.


It's not that, it's that I answer sarcasm with sarcasm.


The reason why is the same as it was for Kent, Biggio, and Glavine. I think the HoF is being polluted with too many marginal players, and I don't like it. I wouldn't mind if they closed the books completely for a while actually.

You're more than welcome to try to change my opinion on him. I do try to keep an open mind, but you've got an uphill battle, and listing career stats isn't going to get the job done. Of this current string of HoF topics, Bagwell would be last one I would vote for.
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Postby DK » Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:13 pm

ThatDude wrote:It's not that, it's that I answer sarcasm with sarcasm.


*shrug* Fair enough.


ThatDude wrote:The reason why is the same as it was for Kent, Biggio, and Glavine. I think the HoF is being polluted with too many marginal players, and I don't like it. I wouldn't mind if they closed the books completely for a while actually.

You're more than welcome to try to change my opinion on him. I do try to keep an open mind, but you've got an uphill battle, and listing career stats isn't going to get the job done. Of this current string of HoF topics, Bagwell would be last one I would vote for.


Showing you statistics won't sway you? Well gosh darn. I won't let those tricky "stats", which were probably invented by a computer to twist my view on baseball so I can only see a beautiful "ground ball with eyes" creep through the middle as a mere 1B, or "single", or whatever those ridiculous computers quantify a hitter getting on first by way of contact with bat and ball.

I'm sorry that rational thought and actual production on a baseball field won't sway you.

And the bolded section is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. Play in this era, and you can't possibly be one of the greatest, so we're going to shut you out. Sorry RJ, Bonds, Maddux, Pedro, Sosa, Clemens. I'm gonna pull a leaf out of Ozzie's book and say "You want to be in the HoF? Play harder in your next life."
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Postby RynMan » Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:23 pm

DK wrote:Showing you statistics won't sway you? Well gosh darn. I won't let those tricky "stats", which were probably invented by a computer to twist my view on baseball so I can only see a beautiful "ground ball with eyes" creep through the middle as a mere 1B, or "single", or whatever those ridiculous computers quantify a hitter getting on first by way of contact with bat and ball.

I'm sorry that rational thought and actual production on a baseball field won't sway you.


:-b :-D
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Postby ThatDude » Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:27 pm

DK wrote:
ThatDude wrote:The reason why is the same as it was for Kent, Biggio, and Glavine. I think the HoF is being polluted with too many marginal players, and I don't like it. I wouldn't mind if they closed the books completely for a while actually.

You're more than welcome to try to change my opinion on him. I do try to keep an open mind, but you've got an uphill battle, and listing career stats isn't going to get the job done. Of this current string of HoF topics, Bagwell would be last one I would vote for.


Showing you statistics won't sway you? Well gosh darn. I won't let those tricky "stats", which were probably invented by a computer to twist my view on baseball so I can only see a beautiful "ground ball with eyes" creep through the middle as a mere 1B, or "single", or whatever those ridiculous computers quantify a hitter getting on first by way of contact with bat and ball.

I'm sorry that rational thought and actual production on a baseball field won't sway you.

And the bolded section is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. Play in this era, and you can't possibly be one of the greatest, so we're going to shut you out. Sorry RJ, Bonds, Maddux, Pedro, Sosa, Clemens. I'm gonna pull a leaf out of Ozzie's book and say "You want to be in the HoF? Play harder in your next life."


What's the difference between me looking up the stats and you typing them out? Nothing. So why would that change my opinion in the least?

Nowhere did I say those players would be shut out (although I've stated where I stand on Pedro in another thread, the Biggio one I think). Closing the doors for 5-6 years wouldn't do anything to erase what they've done, and they would get in when the doors reopened.
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