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Pence, Bruce, Dukes, Tabata, McCutchen?

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Postby Galt » Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:57 am

I said Dukes is a year away, which he is. I still say he doesn't come up until midseason or round about next year. Pence will be up for Houston this year since he's far and away their best hitter, and Wilson is gone after this year - so they need to get a look at him.

Pence's power hasn't surged dramatically, he did hit over 30 homers last year.

Bruce is in low A ball. I doubt he gets to the majors in two years. I'd be happy if he does, since I own him (on the same team I own Pence, Colby Rasmus, and Carlos Gonzalez - holy outfield Batman!)
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Postby TurdFerguson » Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:59 am

J35J wrote:rmande09.........I'm not saying I would take Pence first here but why would he be bad in Houston if called up later in the season?

Career minor leagues.....

986 ABs
.306 avg
59 HR
58 2B
190 RBI
180 R
.960ish OPS
110/194 BB/SO
80% contact rate

Thats an average of .306 33hr 106rbi 101r 61BB 108SO (for 550 ABs)

I'd say thats not to bad. Maybe its just compared to the young studs in Bruce, Tabata, Dukes that you are saying this but it comes across as Pence being garbage?

I'm not saying that I know any better and not really questioning what you know, just curious as to why the numbers show a solid player and your not too high on him.....

Thanks
Jason
How does he not have a track record?It looks pretty solid to me
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Postby rmande09 » Thu Jul 13, 2006 3:59 pm

I'm simply ranking who I would want in a keeper league, and I'm pretty sure about 90% of people who know much about MiLB would agree.

Take who you please, I was just throwing in my two cents!
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Postby Galt » Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:34 pm

So then Rotoworld and The Baseball analysts must be in the other 10% (or maybe you don't know them) since they all have Pence listed in the top 50 prosects and ahead of some of the guys you listed.
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Postby rmande09 » Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:58 pm

Galt wrote:So then Rotoworld and The Baseball analysts must be in the other 10% (or maybe you don't know them) since they all have Pence listed in the top 50 prosects and ahead of some of the guys you listed.


Interesting. Well, since you feel like being such a nice guy, I'll point something out. The Baseball Analysts (Bryan Smith - great guy) have Pence listed at #44. The others:

Jay Bruce, #11. No surprise here. Thirty-three spots between him and Pence.

Elijah Dukes, #15. See a trend here?

Jose Tabata, #21. He's 17 and draws comps to Manny, and is tearing up A- despite being JUST 17 years old. Has all the tools.

Andrew McCutchen, #48. The one guy I put ahead of Pence that is ranked lower. And it's four spots, whereas Tabata was the closest to Pence and held 23 spots, not to mention was part of the "elite" tier at Analysts. I like McCutchen simply because, though his debut has been unimpressive (simply average), he has a chance to develop very good power with very good base stealing skills. I think he was ranked four spots lower because he is so far away; in the end, he should end up being a better player.

As for Rotoworld, I'd first like to say their mid-season prospect list looks like they gave a list of 200 prospects to 12 years olds, included each player's age, stats, and level, and said, "Rank them 1-150." I made a post at my fantasy league's website running down some of the laughers of the list, and here's the first half:

-Andy Marte ranked 5th. I mean... He's somehow stayed in the same spot after an awful first half, in which his K rate has increased and his BB rate has increased, despite repeating the year. Is this for real?

-Daric Barton at #10. No comment, just a lot of laughing.

-Joel Guzman at 13. Not as funny, but still. He swings at balls, doesn't take walks, and Ks a ton. He could very easily never make the jump to the bigs because of his contact rate and LOW BA.

-Billy Butler ranked 14th. How is Guzman and Barton in front of him? Joke. I don't care if he has a position or not, his bat is unreal.

-Yovani Gallardo at 15 is way too high. I like him, but he does not belong in front of about 10 or so prospects listed after him.

-Stephen Drew at 16. Eh? Seriously?

-Salty at 22. Pathetic.

-Jay Bruce should be higher.

-Hayden Penn at 26. HAYDEN PENN!?!?!

-With their 30th ranked prospect, they chose Dustin Pedroia. This is when I realized that Rotoworld was playing a joke on us and wanted to make narcissistic dickheads (Aaron) giddy at their MiLB system.

-Troy Tulowitzki ranked #32. For one, he belongs around 15, if not higher. He always gets shit on when comparing him to Drew, and I don't really see why. But Pedroia?!

-Leading up to my biggest laugher of the list is #33-35. Felix Pie, James Loney (!?), and Adam Loewen. How? Pie doesn't belong in the top 75, Loewen doesn't either, and I'm not even sure Loney belongs on the list.

-At #36 is.... Cameron Maybin! Wait, what? He wasn't top 10? He was ranked NEARLY THIRTY SPOTS below Justin Upton, 13 below Bruce, and behind guys like Felix Pie. Fantastic.


That says enough. And that was only after THIRTY-SIX guys. Anyways, here's what Rotoworld's looked like:

Pence was ranked 38. I personally feel that's a little high, but not by much. Somewhere between 45-50 is where I'd put him.

Somehow, Tabata was the first guy ranked on that list at #18. Not a bad spot, but I don't think he should be in front of Bruce.

Bruce was at #23, and that was way too low. He's a top 12 guy. Gallardo, Guzman, Barton, Quentin, Young, and Marte should certainly be rated below him, as well as Tabata, Hirsh, Adenhart, Carlos Gonzalez (though it's arguable he has become the #3 prospect in that system, behind Upton and Drew), and Salty. That's 11 spots, which puts him at... TWELVE!

Dukes was at #44, six spots below Pence, but the first sentence of their little "blurb" states: "On talent alone, Dukes belongs in the top 25." That says it all. When he grows up, there is no question Dukes will be a better player than Pence, and there's no question he has more talent and would be more useful on a MiLB roster.

McCutchen was at #64. If you look at some of the players between Pence and McCutchen, you should probably laugh. Again, McCutchen is personal preference. I feel he has the ability to be a .300, 10+ homers, 30+ SBs guy, which is rather useful in fantasy leagues.

Here's their blurb on Pence:

Rotoworld wrote:There are undoubtedly some Astros fans who would like to see Pence in the majors right now. Instead, the club has continued to proceed slowly with its 2004 second-round pick. Pence hasn’t even gotten to try Triple-A yet. A 6-foot-5 right-handed hitter, Pence displays an impressive power stroke that has also allowed him to hit for average in the minors. He has been old for his leagues, which is a problem. He’s also not particularly athletic, something that figures to limit him to left field in the majors. There’s little chance that Pence will become a star, but he should be a rock-solid regular beginning in 2007. The Astros will likely let him compete for a starting job next spring.


OK, thanks. I appreciate you trying to make me look like an idiot and all, without even checking it up, but you should probably make sure next time.
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Postby J35J » Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:53 pm

rmande09 wrote:
Galt wrote:So then Rotoworld and The Baseball analysts must be in the other 10% (or maybe you don't know them) since they all have Pence listed in the top 50 prosects and ahead of some of the guys you listed.


Interesting. Well, since you feel like being such a nice guy, I'll point something out. The Baseball Analysts (Bryan Smith - great guy) have Pence listed at #44. The others:

Jay Bruce, #11. No surprise here. Thirty-three spots between him and Pence.

Elijah Dukes, #15. See a trend here?

Jose Tabata, #21. He's 17 and draws comps to Manny, and is tearing up A- despite being JUST 17 years old. Has all the tools.

Andrew McCutchen, #48. The one guy I put ahead of Pence that is ranked lower. And it's four spots, whereas Tabata was the closest to Pence and held 23 spots, not to mention was part of the "elite" tier at Analysts. I like McCutchen simply because, though his debut has been unimpressive (simply average), he has a chance to develop very good power with very good base stealing skills. I think he was ranked four spots lower because he is so far away; in the end, he should end up being a better player.

As for Rotoworld, I'd first like to say their mid-season prospect list looks like they gave a list of 200 prospects to 12 years olds, included each player's age, stats, and level, and said, "Rank them 1-150." I made a post at my fantasy league's website running down some of the laughers of the list, and here's the first half:

-Andy Marte ranked 5th. I mean... He's somehow stayed in the same spot after an awful first half, in which his K rate has increased and his BB rate has increased, despite repeating the year. Is this for real?

-Daric Barton at #10. No comment, just a lot of laughing.

-Joel Guzman at 13. Not as funny, but still. He swings at balls, doesn't take walks, and Ks a ton. He could very easily never make the jump to the bigs because of his contact rate and LOW BA.

-Billy Butler ranked 14th. How is Guzman and Barton in front of him? Joke. I don't care if he has a position or not, his bat is unreal.

-Yovani Gallardo at 15 is way too high. I like him, but he does not belong in front of about 10 or so prospects listed after him.

-Stephen Drew at 16. Eh? Seriously?

-Salty at 22. Pathetic.

-Jay Bruce should be higher.

-Hayden Penn at 26. HAYDEN PENN!?!?!

-With their 30th ranked prospect, they chose Dustin Pedroia. This is when I realized that Rotoworld was playing a joke on us and wanted to make narcissistic dickheads (Aaron) giddy at their MiLB system.

-Troy Tulowitzki ranked #32. For one, he belongs around 15, if not higher. He always gets shit on when comparing him to Drew, and I don't really see why. But Pedroia?!

-Leading up to my biggest laugher of the list is #33-35. Felix Pie, James Loney (!?), and Adam Loewen. How? Pie doesn't belong in the top 75, Loewen doesn't either, and I'm not even sure Loney belongs on the list.

-At #36 is.... Cameron Maybin! Wait, what? He wasn't top 10? He was ranked NEARLY THIRTY SPOTS below Justin Upton, 13 below Bruce, and behind guys like Felix Pie. Fantastic.


That says enough. And that was only after THIRTY-SIX guys. Anyways, here's what Rotoworld's looked like:

Pence was ranked 38. I personally feel that's a little high, but not by much. Somewhere between 45-50 is where I'd put him.

Somehow, Tabata was the first guy ranked on that list at #18. Not a bad spot, but I don't think he should be in front of Bruce.

Bruce was at #23, and that was way too low. He's a top 12 guy. Gallardo, Guzman, Barton, Quentin, Young, and Marte should certainly be rated below him, as well as Tabata, Hirsh, Adenhart, Carlos Gonzalez (though it's arguable he has become the #3 prospect in that system, behind Upton and Drew), and Salty. That's 11 spots, which puts him at... TWELVE!

Dukes was at #44, six spots below Pence, but the first sentence of their little "blurb" states: "On talent alone, Dukes belongs in the top 25." That says it all. When he grows up, there is no question Dukes will be a better player than Pence, and there's no question he has more talent and would be more useful on a MiLB roster.

McCutchen was at #64. If you look at some of the players between Pence and McCutchen, you should probably laugh. Again, McCutchen is personal preference. I feel he has the ability to be a .300, 10+ homers, 30+ SBs guy, which is rather useful in fantasy leagues.

Here's their blurb on Pence:

Rotoworld wrote:There are undoubtedly some Astros fans who would like to see Pence in the majors right now. Instead, the club has continued to proceed slowly with its 2004 second-round pick. Pence hasn’t even gotten to try Triple-A yet. A 6-foot-5 right-handed hitter, Pence displays an impressive power stroke that has also allowed him to hit for average in the minors. He has been old for his leagues, which is a problem. He’s also not particularly athletic, something that figures to limit him to left field in the majors. There’s little chance that Pence will become a star, but he should be a rock-solid regular beginning in 2007. The Astros will likely let him compete for a starting job next spring.


OK, thanks. I appreciate you trying to make me look like an idiot and all, without even checking it up, but you should probably make sure next time.


I agree with pretty much everything said here.


Jason
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Postby Members Only Jackets » Thu Jul 13, 2006 6:27 pm

J35J wrote:
rmande09 wrote:
Galt wrote:So then Rotoworld and The Baseball analysts must be in the other 10% (or maybe you don't know them) since they all have Pence listed in the top 50 prosects and ahead of some of the guys you listed.


Interesting. Well, since you feel like being such a nice guy, I'll point something out. The Baseball Analysts (Bryan Smith - great guy) have Pence listed at #44. The others:

Jay Bruce, #11. No surprise here. Thirty-three spots between him and Pence.

Elijah Dukes, #15. See a trend here?

Jose Tabata, #21. He's 17 and draws comps to Manny, and is tearing up A- despite being JUST 17 years old. Has all the tools.

Andrew McCutchen, #48. The one guy I put ahead of Pence that is ranked lower. And it's four spots, whereas Tabata was the closest to Pence and held 23 spots, not to mention was part of the "elite" tier at Analysts. I like McCutchen simply because, though his debut has been unimpressive (simply average), he has a chance to develop very good power with very good base stealing skills. I think he was ranked four spots lower because he is so far away; in the end, he should end up being a better player.

As for Rotoworld, I'd first like to say their mid-season prospect list looks like they gave a list of 200 prospects to 12 years olds, included each player's age, stats, and level, and said, "Rank them 1-150." I made a post at my fantasy league's website running down some of the laughers of the list, and here's the first half:

-Andy Marte ranked 5th. I mean... He's somehow stayed in the same spot after an awful first half, in which his K rate has increased and his BB rate has increased, despite repeating the year. Is this for real?

-Daric Barton at #10. No comment, just a lot of laughing.

-Joel Guzman at 13. Not as funny, but still. He swings at balls, doesn't take walks, and Ks a ton. He could very easily never make the jump to the bigs because of his contact rate and LOW BA.

-Billy Butler ranked 14th. How is Guzman and Barton in front of him? Joke. I don't care if he has a position or not, his bat is unreal.

-Yovani Gallardo at 15 is way too high. I like him, but he does not belong in front of about 10 or so prospects listed after him.

-Stephen Drew at 16. Eh? Seriously?

-Salty at 22. Pathetic.

-Jay Bruce should be higher.

-Hayden Penn at 26. HAYDEN PENN!?!?!

-With their 30th ranked prospect, they chose Dustin Pedroia. This is when I realized that Rotoworld was playing a joke on us and wanted to make narcissistic dickheads (Aaron) giddy at their MiLB system.

-Troy Tulowitzki ranked #32. For one, he belongs around 15, if not higher. He always gets shit on when comparing him to Drew, and I don't really see why. But Pedroia?!

-Leading up to my biggest laugher of the list is #33-35. Felix Pie, James Loney (!?), and Adam Loewen. How? Pie doesn't belong in the top 75, Loewen doesn't either, and I'm not even sure Loney belongs on the list.

-At #36 is.... Cameron Maybin! Wait, what? He wasn't top 10? He was ranked NEARLY THIRTY SPOTS below Justin Upton, 13 below Bruce, and behind guys like Felix Pie. Fantastic.


That says enough. And that was only after THIRTY-SIX guys. Anyways, here's what Rotoworld's looked like:

Pence was ranked 38. I personally feel that's a little high, but not by much. Somewhere between 45-50 is where I'd put him.

Somehow, Tabata was the first guy ranked on that list at #18. Not a bad spot, but I don't think he should be in front of Bruce.

Bruce was at #23, and that was way too low. He's a top 12 guy. Gallardo, Guzman, Barton, Quentin, Young, and Marte should certainly be rated below him, as well as Tabata, Hirsh, Adenhart, Carlos Gonzalez (though it's arguable he has become the #3 prospect in that system, behind Upton and Drew), and Salty. That's 11 spots, which puts him at... TWELVE!

Dukes was at #44, six spots below Pence, but the first sentence of their little "blurb" states: "On talent alone, Dukes belongs in the top 25." That says it all. When he grows up, there is no question Dukes will be a better player than Pence, and there's no question he has more talent and would be more useful on a MiLB roster.

McCutchen was at #64. If you look at some of the players between Pence and McCutchen, you should probably laugh. Again, McCutchen is personal preference. I feel he has the ability to be a .300, 10+ homers, 30+ SBs guy, which is rather useful in fantasy leagues.

Here's their blurb on Pence:

Rotoworld wrote:There are undoubtedly some Astros fans who would like to see Pence in the majors right now. Instead, the club has continued to proceed slowly with its 2004 second-round pick. Pence hasn’t even gotten to try Triple-A yet. A 6-foot-5 right-handed hitter, Pence displays an impressive power stroke that has also allowed him to hit for average in the minors. He has been old for his leagues, which is a problem. He’s also not particularly athletic, something that figures to limit him to left field in the majors. There’s little chance that Pence will become a star, but he should be a rock-solid regular beginning in 2007. The Astros will likely let him compete for a starting job next spring.


OK, thanks. I appreciate you trying to make me look like an idiot and all, without even checking it up, but you should probably make sure next time.


I agree with pretty much everything said here.


Jason



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Postby TurdFerguson » Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:22 pm

J35J wrote:
rmande09 wrote:
Galt wrote:So then Rotoworld and The Baseball analysts must be in the other 10% (or maybe you don't know them) since they all have Pence listed in the top 50 prosects and ahead of some of the guys you listed.


Interesting. Well, since you feel like being such a nice guy, I'll point something out. The Baseball Analysts (Bryan Smith - great guy) have Pence listed at #44. The others:

Jay Bruce, #11. No surprise here. Thirty-three spots between him and Pence.

Elijah Dukes, #15. See a trend here?

Jose Tabata, #21. He's 17 and draws comps to Manny, and is tearing up A- despite being JUST 17 years old. Has all the tools.

Andrew McCutchen, #48. The one guy I put ahead of Pence that is ranked lower. And it's four spots, whereas Tabata was the closest to Pence and held 23 spots, not to mention was part of the "elite" tier at Analysts. I like McCutchen simply because, though his debut has been unimpressive (simply average), he has a chance to develop very good power with very good base stealing skills. I think he was ranked four spots lower because he is so far away; in the end, he should end up being a better player.

As for Rotoworld, I'd first like to say their mid-season prospect list looks like they gave a list of 200 prospects to 12 years olds, included each player's age, stats, and level, and said, "Rank them 1-150." I made a post at my fantasy league's website running down some of the laughers of the list, and here's the first half:

-Andy Marte ranked 5th. I mean... He's somehow stayed in the same spot after an awful first half, in which his K rate has increased and his BB rate has increased, despite repeating the year. Is this for real?

-Daric Barton at #10. No comment, just a lot of laughing.

-Joel Guzman at 13. Not as funny, but still. He swings at balls, doesn't take walks, and Ks a ton. He could very easily never make the jump to the bigs because of his contact rate and LOW BA.

-Billy Butler ranked 14th. How is Guzman and Barton in front of him? Joke. I don't care if he has a position or not, his bat is unreal.

-Yovani Gallardo at 15 is way too high. I like him, but he does not belong in front of about 10 or so prospects listed after him.

-Stephen Drew at 16. Eh? Seriously?

-Salty at 22. Pathetic.

-Jay Bruce should be higher.

-Hayden Penn at 26. HAYDEN PENN!?!?!

-With their 30th ranked prospect, they chose Dustin Pedroia. This is when I realized that Rotoworld was playing a joke on us and wanted to make narcissistic dickheads (Aaron) giddy at their MiLB system.

-Troy Tulowitzki ranked #32. For one, he belongs around 15, if not higher. He always gets shit on when comparing him to Drew, and I don't really see why. But Pedroia?!

-Leading up to my biggest laugher of the list is #33-35. Felix Pie, James Loney (!?), and Adam Loewen. How? Pie doesn't belong in the top 75, Loewen doesn't either, and I'm not even sure Loney belongs on the list.

-At #36 is.... Cameron Maybin! Wait, what? He wasn't top 10? He was ranked NEARLY THIRTY SPOTS below Justin Upton, 13 below Bruce, and behind guys like Felix Pie. Fantastic.


That says enough. And that was only after THIRTY-SIX guys. Anyways, here's what Rotoworld's looked like:

Pence was ranked 38. I personally feel that's a little high, but not by much. Somewhere between 45-50 is where I'd put him.

Somehow, Tabata was the first guy ranked on that list at #18. Not a bad spot, but I don't think he should be in front of Bruce.

Bruce was at #23, and that was way too low. He's a top 12 guy. Gallardo, Guzman, Barton, Quentin, Young, and Marte should certainly be rated below him, as well as Tabata, Hirsh, Adenhart, Carlos Gonzalez (though it's arguable he has become the #3 prospect in that system, behind Upton and Drew), and Salty. That's 11 spots, which puts him at... TWELVE!

Dukes was at #44, six spots below Pence, but the first sentence of their little "blurb" states: "On talent alone, Dukes belongs in the top 25." That says it all. When he grows up, there is no question Dukes will be a better player than Pence, and there's no question he has more talent and would be more useful on a MiLB roster.

McCutchen was at #64. If you look at some of the players between Pence and McCutchen, you should probably laugh. Again, McCutchen is personal preference. I feel he has the ability to be a .300, 10+ homers, 30+ SBs guy, which is rather useful in fantasy leagues.

Here's their blurb on Pence:

Rotoworld wrote:There are undoubtedly some Astros fans who would like to see Pence in the majors right now. Instead, the club has continued to proceed slowly with its 2004 second-round pick. Pence hasn’t even gotten to try Triple-A yet. A 6-foot-5 right-handed hitter, Pence displays an impressive power stroke that has also allowed him to hit for average in the minors. He has been old for his leagues, which is a problem. He’s also not particularly athletic, something that figures to limit him to left field in the majors. There’s little chance that Pence will become a star, but he should be a rock-solid regular beginning in 2007. The Astros will likely let him compete for a starting job next spring.


OK, thanks. I appreciate you trying to make me look like an idiot and all, without even checking it up, but you should probably make sure next time.


I agree with pretty much everything said here.


Jason
Everyone is entitled to their opinion.I dont agree with really anything the guy says about Pence.First , he really is not that old(23).He is in AA and could be in the majors by the time he is 24.Its not like he is 26 or 27.Second, he is some what athletic for his size 11-13 in stolen bases.I believe he has pretty strong arm also.His home park will only help his value also when he moves to the bigs.
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Postby rmande09 » Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:48 pm

Turd, my point was the guy over at Rotoworld who did these rankings (or the 12 year old kids, as I suggested) know jack-*&$%. Though Pence does not have great athletic ability, and, at his size, it will certainly decrease as he gets older. Stolen bases do not reflect an athlete's ability. He does not have a particularly good arm, either, it is ML average. And 23 in AA is a little above where you want your prospects to be. But that's not really important.
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