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Postby Madison » Fri Jul 07, 2006 4:47 pm

5 wrote:
Madison wrote:
78 percent of our panel of more than one thousand men said they believe in God


Yet we continue to remove God from everything in the country because it offends the minority.

Makes sense. ;-7


Do you really think the Ten Commandments belongs in a public setting...like a courthouse or town square?


The country was founded with a belief in God, so why remove God from the country now?
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Postby 5 » Fri Jul 07, 2006 4:59 pm

God himself isn't being removed from anything.
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Postby Absolutely Adequate » Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:27 pm

Madison wrote:
78 percent of our panel of more than one thousand men said they believe in God


Yet we continue to remove God from everything in the country because it offends the minority.

Makes sense. ;-7


You make a good point. Which is why I've decided to place the tenets of the Church of Satanism on the wall of my classroom. Heck, 78% of people believe in God. How could anyone have a problem with that?
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Postby DK » Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:30 pm

Madison wrote:
78 percent of our panel of more than one thousand men said they believe in God


Yet we continue to remove God from everything in the country because it offends the minority.

Makes sense. ;-7


Not all beliefs in God are the same though. One man's God could be another man's heathen.

It's like saying "78% of all people like basketball", but everyone should be taught to like the Knicks. There's more than one God to believe in, just like there's more than one basketball team to like. Simple, I know, but pretty analogous to the situation.
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Postby Omaha Red Sox » Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:31 pm

Absolutely Adequate wrote:
Madison wrote:
78 percent of our panel of more than one thousand men said they believe in God


Yet we continue to remove God from everything in the country because it offends the minority.

Makes sense. ;-7


You make a good point. Which is why I've decided to place the tenets of the Church of Satanism on the wall of my classroom. Heck, 78% of people believe in God. How could anyone have a problem with that?


And what would that represent... besides an immature retort?
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Postby Coppermine » Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:40 pm

I think the argument is a simple one; first of all, it's not about who the 10 commandments "offends." Our constitution is arguably based on the principle that there is a separation between church and state. What that means, to me, is that religion does not play a role in how our laws are made or enforced. The principle of this is based on a very violent and bizarre history of religion in the United States and in Europe. I don't need to get into things like the Inquisitions or the Salem Witch Trials, nor do I need to delve into the more abstract examples of religious persecution, like the Puritans practice of cutting of Quakers' ears.

Quite simply, having the 10 commandments outside a courthouse as a symbol would give the impression that your trial is not as fair or non-secular as our constitution allows; unless of course you're a Christian. Now, I realize that this is an antiquated idealogy... judging someone based on their religious persuasion is an injustice from a time gone by; or is it?

The 10 commandments themselves are silly and somewhat repetetive. Yet there are the principle for the most practiced religion in the world and, more so, in the United States. It doesn't mean that there should be any implication that those commandments are going to be the basis for your conviction. Last time I checked, many of the commandments are legal, if not religiously immoral. But morals are subjective and the very reason that the separation is excplicitly defined in the constitution is that the majority isn't always right; and by right, I mean in the very specific, legal view, not the moral one.

There was a time when a majority of people thought slavery was a good idea; both economically and socially. I support accountability and anything that can prevent a "groupthink" kind of society that can rally behind and ideal that is simply discriminatory. So yeah, the majority of people in this country are Christian; and that is an important part of our country. Yet it's not how people should be judged.
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Postby Madison » Fri Jul 07, 2006 6:42 pm

Omaha Red Sox wrote:
Absolutely Adequate wrote:
Madison wrote:
78 percent of our panel of more than one thousand men said they believe in God


Yet we continue to remove God from everything in the country because it offends the minority.

Makes sense. ;-7


You make a good point. Which is why I've decided to place the tenets of the Church of Satanism on the wall of my classroom. Heck, 78% of people believe in God. How could anyone have a problem with that?


And what would that represent... besides an immature retort?


That's just AA being AA.




Here's the thing. When you join the U.S.A., and pledge allegiance to the U.S.A., you accept the country for which it stands. In this case, "under God", as stated. Seeing as how no one is forced to stay in this country, if that offends someone, they are free to leave and live somewhere that doesn't have a religion. I don't see why this is such a big deal.

Would it be right for someone to come into your house and ask you to take down a statue of Buddah because it offends them? Of course not. Yet it's ok to do that to an entire country that was founded with a belief in God?

How about marrying someone and then telling them they can no longer be Catholic? Is that ok? No different than becoming a citizen here, and then telling the country that it cannot display or say anything about God.

I already covered this, but it is a fact that if you're born into this country and do not agree with what it stands for, and was founded on, no one is forcing you to stay. Plenty of other countries out there that you're free to go to, and free to suggest that they change their policies, practices, and standards to meet what you want, or think is acceptable.
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Postby Absolutely Adequate » Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:01 pm

Madison wrote:
Omaha Red Sox wrote:
Absolutely Adequate wrote:
Madison wrote:
78 percent of our panel of more than one thousand men said they believe in God


Yet we continue to remove God from everything in the country because it offends the minority.

Makes sense. ;-7


You make a good point. Which is why I've decided to place the tenets of the Church of Satanism on the wall of my classroom. Heck, 78% of people believe in God. How could anyone have a problem with that?


And what would that represent... besides an immature retort?


That's just AA being AA.




Here's the thing. When you join the U.S.A., and pledge allegiance to the U.S.A., you accept the country for which it stands. In this case, "under God", as stated. Seeing as how no one is forced to stay in this country, if that offends someone, they are free to leave and live somewhere that doesn't have a religion. I don't see why this is such a big deal.

Would it be right for someone to come into your house and ask you to take down a statue of Buddah because it offends them? Of course not. Yet it's ok to do that to an entire country that was founded with a belief in God?

How about marrying someone and then telling them they can no longer be Catholic? Is that ok? No different than becoming a citizen here, and then telling the country that it cannot display or say anything about God.

I already covered this, but it is a fact that if you're born into this country and do not agree with what it stands for, and was founded on, no one is forcing you to stay. Plenty of other countries out there that you're free to go to, and free to suggest that they change their policies, practices, and standards to meet what you want, or think is acceptable.


I agree that we shouldn't change what the country was founded on: Separation of Church and State.

You quote from the Pledge of Allegiance to prove that the country was meant to incorporate God? C'mon! The Pledge was written by a socialist hired to promote a kids' magazine. "Under God" wasn't added until 1954. It's 50 years old.

Do you want to get back to the original intent? Let's travel back to the constitution, huh?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . .


People are trying to change what this country was founded on, but it's not who you say it is. This country was founded upon the principles of justice, security, and liberty for each individual person. When I have to put up with your ten commandments on the wall of the courthouse, it is as offensive to me as when I put up the rules of Satanism on the wall of my classroom is to you. I don't follow your religion.

And I appreciate that every time I express a differing view, you tell me to leave the country. That's great. But maybe if you're unhappy with us following the Establishment Clause, you should follow your own advice.
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Postby Madison » Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:17 pm

Absolutely Adequate wrote:I agree that we shouldn't change what the country was founded on: Separation of Church and State.


You can ignore all you want, but the country was also founded with a belief in God.

AA wrote:You quote from the Pledge of Allegiance to prove that the country was meant to incorporate God? C'mon! The Pledge was written by a socialist hired to promote a kids' magazine. "Under God" wasn't added until 1954. It's 50 years old.


Our money has God on it too. ;-) The pledge isn't the only thing that proves the point. ;-)

AA wrote:Do you want to get back to the original intent? Let's travel back to the constitution, huh?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . .


People are trying to change what this country was founded on, but it's not who you say it is. This country was founded upon the principles of justice, security, and liberty for each individual person.


And also the belief in God. Pretty amazing how you seem to overlook that fact.

Oh, and where or how has the country prevented you from worshipping as you please? Oh wait, it's just Christians that are having to deal with that injustice. ;-7

AA wrote:When I have to put up with your ten commandments on the wall of the courthouse, it is as offensive to me as when I put up the rules of Satanism on the wall of my classroom is to you. I don't follow your religion.


What makes you think I'd be offended if you put up the rules of Satanism on the wall of your classroom? Some of us are a bit more openminded than you are. I personally wouldn't be offended in the least, but that's part of accepting people for who they are and what they believe. Something you obviously are not able to do, and don't misunderstand, I'm not taking a shot at you, just saying what's obvious.

AA wrote:And I appreciate that every time I express a differing view, you tell me to leave the country. That's great. But maybe if you're unhappy with us following the Establishment Clause, you should follow your own advice.


Where did I tell you to leave the country in this thread? Show me. I said people have the option of leaving (which is true), but where did I say that you should leave? Yet another pathetic attempt of yours to put words in my mouth, and quite frankly you're only making yourself look bad when you pull crap like this.

How about our last discussion where we disagreed? Did I tell you to leave the country in that one? Here's a reminder:

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By golly, that's our last two disagreements, and in neither one of them I said you should leave the country. ;-7

You do realize how bad you make youself look when you tell blatant and boldface lies to try to make others look bad, don't you?
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Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
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Postby Absolutely Adequate » Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:28 pm

Madison wrote:Where did I tell you to leave the country in this thread? Show me. I said people have the option of leaving (which is true), but where did I say that you should leave? Yet another pathetic attempt of yours to put words in my mouth, and quite frankly you're only making yourself look bad when you pull crap like this.



I already covered this, but it is a fact that if you're born into this country and do not agree with what it stands for, and was founded on, no one is forcing you to stay. Plenty of other countries out there that you're free to go to, and free to suggest that they change their policies, practices, and standards to meet what you want, or think is acceptable.


Tell you what. Try and stick to the topic of discussion. You say that the country was founded on God. I say it wasn't.

You offered as proof a 50 year old pledge. I offer the Constitution.

You offer as proof a 50 year old motto (http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-s ... rust.shtml)

If you don't have any proof, you're no good to me. Like I tell my students, you can't prove anything without actual proof.

And I'd appreciate it if you could keep the personal attacks to a minimum.

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