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Game on the line; Ortiz? Jeter? Zimmerman????

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Postby BronXBombers51 » Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:22 am

davidmarver wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:
davidmarver wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:Clutch hitters don't exist.

Be careful. The reason the word 'clutch' cannot be attributed to individual players is because of the lack of a large enough sample size. This doesn't mean clutch players don't exist, there's just not enough time in players' careers to statistically prove it.


Explain something to me.

How much of a sample size would you need in order to deem a player clutch? I mean, think of the sample size it would take in order to call a player a 'great hitter.' A few years worth of great hitting?

Now obviously you'd have a substantially less sample size of clutch situations, since there are so many fewer of these situations. But wouldn't a player that does well during that sample size (no matter how much smaller it may be), be considered clutch?

I mean, let's say the most 'clutch situations' in any player's career is 200 ABs. Now, that is a small sample size. However, if that is the maximum amount of situations ANYONE gets, doesn't that make it the standard...and thus anyone who performs well in those 200 ABs is a clutch player?

It depends on the population mean (his career average) and sample size (career at bats) and the sample mean (his clutch average) and that sample size (clutch at bats). It's going to be a lot of at bats either way at an average much higher than normal.


So if a player hits at a better average during clutch situations than his career average, he's clutch?

Or are you saying that the clutch situations are not a large enough sample size to say that that player is clutch?

And in case what you're saying is the latter, wouldn't it basically mean that no player is clutch? If nobody can ever achieve a sample size large enough to make the stats meaningful, then basically nobody can be labeled a clutch player, correct?

Sorry about all the questions, just trying to better understand it.

I doubt any of that made any sense. I'm pretty tired. !+) If you can't understand it, then just forget it. :-b

It's cool. Hey...I have a trade inquiry in Hot Stove league. What do you think of a Jeff Kent/Edwin Encarnacion swap?


You're probably looking for chris8, he's the Mets (and Edwin owner) in the Dynasty. I'm chose the ChiSox, a decision I regret more and more everyday. }:-) :-b
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Postby Chip1010 » Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:26 am

CheeseBeger wrote:Absolutely no respect for Zimmerman here!


I've got a lot of love for Zimmerman. Another game-winner today. Pretty impressive for a rookie. That said, I want the bat in Ortiz's hands.
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Postby mariahthepariah » Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:17 am

Ortiz is nice but if money is on the line. I want Fat Albert at the plate.
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Postby brandnew » Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:36 am

"Wassu yo this ee thavid orthiz"

"Big heart, big soul, big boy... I guess that why they call me Big Papi"
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Postby Bloody Sox » Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:23 am

BronXBombers51 wrote:
PlayingWithFire wrote:great, just wait till somebody come here and give us a half page lecture on how clutch hitting doesn't exist.

I'll take Pooholes

or a healthy Barry Bonds in his prime


Clutch hitters don't exist. I'd simply want the best hitters up. Pujols, A-Rod, as you said Bonds in his prime. All are the best at doing their job. ;-D


Saying there is no clutch hitting is ignoring the human element in baseball. There's more to the game than just stats. There's a reason that some guys are great in middle relief and suck as closers, there's a reason some guys have drastically lower batting averages when there are men in scoring position late in close games, and there's a reason some guys bite the big one come playoff time. It's called pressure - some handle it a lot better than others. Papi is THE prime example, while A-Rod throughout his career has generally tightened up when the pressure is ratcheted up a few notches. I will say I was pretty impressed earlier this week when he came through on consecutive days.
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Postby BronXBombers51 » Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:48 am

Bloody Sox wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:
PlayingWithFire wrote:great, just wait till somebody come here and give us a half page lecture on how clutch hitting doesn't exist.

I'll take Pooholes

or a healthy Barry Bonds in his prime


Clutch hitters don't exist. I'd simply want the best hitters up. Pujols, A-Rod, as you said Bonds in his prime. All are the best at doing their job. ;-D


Saying there is no clutch hitting is ignoring the human element in baseball. There's more to the game than just stats. There's a reason that some guys are great in middle relief and suck as closers, there's a reason some guys have drastically lower batting averages when there are men in scoring position late in close games, and there's a reason some guys bite the big one come playoff time. It's called pressure - some handle it a lot better than others. Papi is THE prime example, while A-Rod throughout his career has generally tightened up when the pressure is ratcheted up a few notches. I will say I was pretty impressed earlier this week when he came through on consecutive days.


There is clutch hitting. There are clutch situations and a player coming through in one can be said to have gotten a clutch hit.

My statement was that there are no clutch hitters over an extended period of time. I'll reserve more comments for a later time, as I am currently trying to understand the concept even more, so that when I can provide more proof of the theory.
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Postby Iconoclastic » Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:31 pm

I'll take Jeff Conine. Nobody gets better at bats than Conine when the game is on the line.
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Aramis Ramirez in 155 G will hit over .300 40 HR 110 RBIs

Brian McCann will have more value than Jorge Posada regardless of draft position
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Postby TheYanks04 » Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:35 pm

Bloody Sox wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:
PlayingWithFire wrote:great, just wait till somebody come here and give us a half page lecture on how clutch hitting doesn't exist.

I'll take Pooholes

or a healthy Barry Bonds in his prime


Clutch hitters don't exist. I'd simply want the best hitters up. Pujols, A-Rod, as you said Bonds in his prime. All are the best at doing their job. ;-D


Saying there is no clutch hitting is ignoring the human element in baseball. There's more to the game than just stats. There's a reason that some guys are great in middle relief and suck as closers, there's a reason some guys have drastically lower batting averages when there are men in scoring position late in close games, and there's a reason some guys bite the big one come playoff time. It's called pressure - some handle it a lot better than others. Papi is THE prime example, while A-Rod throughout his career has generally tightened up when the pressure is ratcheted up a few notches. I will say I was pretty impressed earlier this week when he came through on consecutive days.



Amen! And those that would select ARod simply have their stathead heads up their perverbial rear. Anyone who actually thinks "A-Choke"/"A-Fraud"/"Mr 0 HRs and 0 Rbis in the ALDS"/"Mr Beat up on Travis Harper in May"/"the 21st Century Dave Winfield"/"Mr. 3 run bomb up by 8" or any of the other even less complimetary things he has been called in NY by the media and the fans is a player you want at the plate with a big game on the line is out of their minds.
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Postby BronXBombers51 » Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:45 pm

TheYanks04 wrote:
Bloody Sox wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:
PlayingWithFire wrote:great, just wait till somebody come here and give us a half page lecture on how clutch hitting doesn't exist.

I'll take Pooholes

or a healthy Barry Bonds in his prime


Clutch hitters don't exist. I'd simply want the best hitters up. Pujols, A-Rod, as you said Bonds in his prime. All are the best at doing their job. ;-D


Saying there is no clutch hitting is ignoring the human element in baseball. There's more to the game than just stats. There's a reason that some guys are great in middle relief and suck as closers, there's a reason some guys have drastically lower batting averages when there are men in scoring position late in close games, and there's a reason some guys bite the big one come playoff time. It's called pressure - some handle it a lot better than others. Papi is THE prime example, while A-Rod throughout his career has generally tightened up when the pressure is ratcheted up a few notches. I will say I was pretty impressed earlier this week when he came through on consecutive days.



Amen! And those that would select ARod simply have their stathead heads up their perverbial rear. Anyone who actually thinks "A-Choke"/"A-Fraud"/"Mr 0 HRs and 0 Rbis in the ALDS"/"Mr Beat up on Travis Harper in May"/"the 21st Century Dave Winfield"/"Mr. 3 run bomb up by 8" or any of the other even less complimetary things he has been called in NY by the media and the fans is a player you want at the plate with a big game on the line is out of their minds.


coughhypocritecough
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Postby Bloody Sox » Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:42 pm

ESPN poll:

"Bottom of the ninth inning. The potential winning run strides to the plate.

This situation occurs several times during the baseball season, but it takes a clutch performer to go yard, walk-off style. SportsCenter wants to know which hitters you would trust to end the game with a home run, SportsNation?

Below are 10 of the top hitters in the game today and we'd like you to rank them in terms of which ones you would count on to come through in the clutch. Simply drag the numbers onto the photos and click submit when you are done."

"Real time" Results (final results at 6 pm on sportscenter):

1. David Ortiz
2. Abert Pujols
3. Manny Ramirez
4. Jim Thome
5. Ken Griffey Jr.
6. Jason Giambi
7. Barry Bonds
8. Ryan Howard
9. Alex Rodriguez
10. Adam Dunn
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