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So Cubbies... Is Dusty gone?

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Postby The Miner Part 2 » Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:13 pm

davidmarver wrote:
and stop ignoring the fact that the cubs started spending substantial money once dusty showed up.

In Dusty's first season, the payroll increased 3.9% while the team's winning increased 31.3%.

Then, in 2004, the team lost Kerry Wood and Mark Prior to injuries -- which, contrary to popular belief are not Dusty's fault -- and still increased their win total.


could you show me where you find historical mlb salaries?
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Postby ThatDude » Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:16 pm

davidmarver wrote:In Dusty's first season, the payroll increased 3.9% while the team's winning increased 31.3%.


Prior and Zambrano pitching their first full seasons in the rotation with a minimal effect on payroll couldn't have possibly had anything to do with that though, right?

The trade for Aramis and Lofton wasn't a factor either.

It was all Dusty's doing.
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Postby Absolutely Adequate » Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:32 pm

The Miner Part 2 wrote:
davidmarver wrote:
and stop ignoring the fact that the cubs started spending substantial money once dusty showed up.

In Dusty's first season, the payroll increased 3.9% while the team's winning increased 31.3%.

Then, in 2004, the team lost Kerry Wood and Mark Prior to injuries -- which, contrary to popular belief are not Dusty's fault -- and still increased their win total.


could you show me where you find historical mlb salaries?


http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/baseball ... fault.aspx
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Postby wrveres » Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:54 pm

In 2002 the Cubs got 33 starts out of Kerry Wood, and 19 starts out of Prior (more than 1/2 the season), 16 starts out of Zambrano and a career year out of Clement, and still managed to finish 30 games out of first and 27 games below .500 ..

so it must have been the addition of Kenny Lofton, and Dusty Baker just got lucky winning 8 seasons in a row ...



I'm sorry, I stand corrected again. ;-7
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Postby johnsamo » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:00 pm

The Cubs did have some rotten luck. Three years ago, Zambrano, Prior and Wood looked like a great 1 2 & 3 top of a rotation. Basically having two of those guys barely on the team since then was a blow, but that can't explain it all. It seems to me that the Cubs spend big on a few core players, than go cheap everywhere else.

The biggest problem to me though is, they should have a farm system so they don't have to go out and get big $ Free agents like Jones and Pierre. I think the best teams use the FA market to get bargain bin players who cam fill a role or bonafide stars. Grabbing Jones, a guy who really should be a platoon outfielder, or an aging speedster, and paying them huge $, bad idea.
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Postby ThatDude » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:07 pm

johnsamo wrote:The Cubs did have some rotten luck. Three years ago, Zambrano, Prior and Wood looked like a great 1 2 & 3 top of a rotation. Basically having two of those guys barely on the team since then was a blow, but that can't explain it all. It seems to me that the Cubs spend big on a few core players, than go cheap everywhere else.

The biggest problem to me though is, they should have a farm system so they don't have to go out and get big $ Free agents like Jones and Pierre. I think the best teams use the FA market to get bargain bin players who cam fill a role or bonafide stars. Grabbing Jones, a guy who really should be a platoon outfielder, or an aging speedster, and paying them huge $, bad idea.


First, they traded for Pierre, he wasn't a FA. He will be at the end of this year, and I hope they don't resign him.

They do spend big on a some players, but that doesn't mean they spend wisely. Jones is a good example of that. But they also don't spend small money very wisely either, such as giving Neifi $5M over 2 years and whatever they gave Rusch, I think it's pretty close to what they gave Neifi, but I don't feel like looking it up. There's about $10M wasted on pure garbage.

But as much as the front office is to blame for spending money poorly, Dusty is to blame for not getting the most out of the team he has been given, instead choosing to make excuses.
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Postby Absolutely Adequate » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:40 pm

Jacque Jones is better than most people believe. I'm not looking it up, but isn't he hitting close to .300 with 15 homers? And isn't he doing it for about 5 million dollars? He's not great, but he's a solid player, I think.
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Postby bigh0rt » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:43 pm

ThatDude wrote:
johnsamo wrote:The Cubs did have some rotten luck. Three years ago, Zambrano, Prior and Wood looked like a great 1 2 & 3 top of a rotation. Basically having two of those guys barely on the team since then was a blow, but that can't explain it all. It seems to me that the Cubs spend big on a few core players, than go cheap everywhere else.

The biggest problem to me though is, they should have a farm system so they don't have to go out and get big $ Free agents like Jones and Pierre. I think the best teams use the FA market to get bargain bin players who cam fill a role or bonafide stars. Grabbing Jones, a guy who really should be a platoon outfielder, or an aging speedster, and paying them huge $, bad idea.


First, they traded for Pierre, he wasn't a FA. He will be at the end of this year, and I hope they don't resign him.

They do spend big on a some players, but that doesn't mean they spend wisely. Jones is a good example of that. But they also don't spend small money very wisely either, such as giving Neifi $5M over 2 years and whatever they gave Rusch, I think it's pretty close to what they gave Neifi, but I don't feel like looking it up. There's about $10M wasted on pure garbage.

But as much as the front office is to blame for spending money poorly, Dusty is to blame for not getting the most out of the team he has been given, instead choosing to make excuses.


Based on your argument... who's fault is it? Management for bringing in garbage? Or Dusty's for not making garbage win big? Tough to argue both... I know you specifically said "get the most out of", but if the Cubs have garbage as brought in by mgmt., what more is Dusty to do? From where I'm standing, you can't really throw blame on both. Either Dusty isn't getting production out of players who ought to be producing, or management is bringing in crap and the crap is playing like crap.
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Postby ThatDude » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:51 pm

Absolutely Adequate wrote:Jacque Jones is better than most people believe. I'm not looking it up, but isn't he hitting close to .300 with 15 homers? And isn't he doing it for about 5 million dollars? He's not great, but he's a solid player, I think.


Yes, he is hitting .307 with 15 HR's, but he needs to be a platooned.

This year:

vs. lefties .213/.387/.620
vs. righties.342/.588/.964


For his career :

vs. lefties .226/.343/.617
vs. righties .297/.495/.839


I still don't like the idea of spending $15M over 3 years on a platoon player.
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Postby ThatDude » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:52 pm

bigh0rt wrote:
ThatDude wrote:
johnsamo wrote:The Cubs did have some rotten luck. Three years ago, Zambrano, Prior and Wood looked like a great 1 2 & 3 top of a rotation. Basically having two of those guys barely on the team since then was a blow, but that can't explain it all. It seems to me that the Cubs spend big on a few core players, than go cheap everywhere else.

The biggest problem to me though is, they should have a farm system so they don't have to go out and get big $ Free agents like Jones and Pierre. I think the best teams use the FA market to get bargain bin players who cam fill a role or bonafide stars. Grabbing Jones, a guy who really should be a platoon outfielder, or an aging speedster, and paying them huge $, bad idea.


First, they traded for Pierre, he wasn't a FA. He will be at the end of this year, and I hope they don't resign him.

They do spend big on a some players, but that doesn't mean they spend wisely. Jones is a good example of that. But they also don't spend small money very wisely either, such as giving Neifi $5M over 2 years and whatever they gave Rusch, I think it's pretty close to what they gave Neifi, but I don't feel like looking it up. There's about $10M wasted on pure garbage.

But as much as the front office is to blame for spending money poorly, Dusty is to blame for not getting the most out of the team he has been given, instead choosing to make excuses.


Based on your argument... who's fault is it? Management for bringing in garbage? Or Dusty's for not making garbage win big? Tough to argue both... I know you specifically said "get the most out of", but if the Cubs have garbage as brought in by mgmt., what more is Dusty to do? From where I'm standing, you can't really throw blame on both. Either Dusty isn't getting production out of players who ought to be producing, or management is bringing in crap and the crap is playing like crap.


As bad as this team is, there is more than enough blame to go around for everybody, from the front office to the coaching staff to the players on the field.
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