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Postby CBMGreatOne » Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:39 pm

I disagree jnormy. That Heat trade was NOT all that bad of a trade at the time considering ALL of the factors involved.

You have to weigh in the fact that Shaq was VERY unhappy, VERY expensive, and Shaq was clearly on the downward turn in his career. (Look at his career numbers before you bother to refute this.)

Also, Dwyane Wade is the main reason the Heat won that championship. Sure Shaq had a hand in it, and his veteran presence was as valuable as his tangible contributions, but we're not talking about a legit superstar in the NBA anymore (on performance alone-obviously the diesel will always be a legend).

There weren't people clamoring about how unfair this trade was because everybody had an EQUAL opportunity to get Shaq, the Heat just made the MOST attractive offer.

In real life, teams shop around, they don't just jump at the first deal. If this guy wanted to move Beltran, he should have shopped around also, rather than just take the first deal in which the numbers didn't seem too lopsided.

If I were in that league and that trade went through, I'd have second thoughts about playing in it again the next year, just my 2 cents.
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Postby jnormy » Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:57 pm

CBMGreatOne wrote:I disagree jnormy. That Heat trade was NOT all that bad of a trade at the time considering ALL of the factors involved.

You have to weigh in the fact that Shaq was VERY unhappy, VERY expensive, and Shaq was clearly on the downward turn in his career. (Look at his career numbers before you bother to refute this.)

Also, Dwyane Wade is the main reason the Heat won that championship. Sure Shaq had a hand in it, and his veteran presence was as valuable as his tangible contributions, but we're not talking about a legit superstar in the NBA anymore (on performance alone-obviously the diesel will always be a legend).

There weren't people clamoring about how unfair this trade was because everybody had an EQUAL opportunity to get Shaq, the Heat just made the MOST attractive offer.

In real life, teams shop around, they don't just jump at the first deal. If this guy wanted to move Beltran, he should have shopped around also, rather than just take the first deal in which the numbers didn't seem too lopsided.

If I were in that league and that trade went through, I'd have second thoughts about playing in it again the next year, just my 2 cents.


How do you know there weren't other offers/overtures involving Beltran in that league? Other teams might have had their shot and blew it.

My point is, bad trades happen in any sport and any league. Not every owner/manager is as savvy as the next. If we went through the history of sport and made note of every team that benefited from a bad trade, there'd be a lot of asterisks in the history books. (The Yankees alone would lose years of un-asterisked championships after the Ruth trade!) It's a part of the game... always has been, and always will be.

(And as a Knicks fan, I've LIVING that at the moment. :,-( Dolan is a complete moron.)
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Postby bluejkrew » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:03 pm

the way i see it, there are no ethics involved in your case. A deal was made that both parties wanted and if the majority of the league doesn't think its fair, then they should have the right to veto it. Honestly, I don't think the trade was lopsided at all and if it was, then you're getting the bad end of the deal so far this season.
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Postby CBMGreatOne » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:11 pm

I guess it all comes down to a choice- Do you want to play in a league where that kind of trade goes down or don't you?

Honestly, are you playing in that kind of league?

You can argue that bad trades have happened in other sports, but you have the benefit of hindsight. Bad trades ARE policed in the major sports. Selig has shot a number of different trades down during the course of his tenure of commissioner.

Let's face it, Beltran for Gomes and Escobar is a childish trade. Are you going to deny that? Are you going to deny that it takes a manager substantially less informed than the average major league manager to pull the trigger on such a deal in fantasy?

I want a high quality of competition and to me that entails playing with managers who respect the value of their stars and aren't willing to trade them for peanuts. It isn't the guy getting Beltran's responsibility to reject the trade, but IMHO it's the commish and the rest of the league's responsibility to make sure people are making responsible decisions.

You would be hard pressed to find an example of a trade in any of the major sports in recent memory in which there was clearly an irresponsible decision made by one coach/team (at the time it was made, not in hindsight). To me, allowing your star to go for a low price is irresponsible and I don't want it in my league. It seems unlikely that we are going to come to any further common ground on this issue, but would you personally rather play in a league where these childish situations arise or a competitive one in which everyone is trying their darndest to win?
Last edited by CBMGreatOne on Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby sportsguy138 » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:12 pm

even though he got the worst part of the trade its not ur problem..

you try to get the best trade you can.. and he needed pitching.. helps your both even though he didnt get enough value
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Postby Bad Moon » Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:12 pm

A Commissioner needs to show some discretion when reviewing trades. People are entitled to have their own opinions about player value and how they want to manage their team. But at some point a trade becomes so bad, so horrendous, so absolutely pathetic, that a VETO is the only reasonable course of action. This was just such a trade.

I'm a little EMOTIONAL about this topic at the moment because my league just had a similar trade involving Beltran - actually, it was worse if you can believe it.

Ticks me off.

People should be allowed to run their teams - they should not be allowed to jeopardize the integrity of a league with their ignorance and/or apathy.
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Postby CBMGreatOne » Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:15 pm

People should be allowed to run their teams - they should not be allowed to jeopardize the integrity of a league with their ignorance and/or apathy.


and there you have it.
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Postby jnormy » Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:24 am

Everyone certainly has a right to jump leagues if they want. I just think it's kind of hasty to think a league sucks because of one bad trade. If a trade is SO bad, the rest of the owners should get on the guy's case and/or implore the commissioner to get involved... not just abandon ship on a league they joined knowing full well going in the rules and procedures involving trades.

What's really funny is how people are jumping to all sorts of conclusions here without having nearly enough information about the whole situation. Does the Beltran owner have Crawford, Manny, and Jason Bay as the rest of his OFs, and his best SP is Eric Milton? Is it a keeper league? If so, maybe he thinks Beltran has the potential to revert to sucking like he did all of last year, and thinks Gomes (the younger man by 4 years) is a future 40 HR per year guy. He is projected to have a pretty high power ceiling.

Maybe the league's scoring system values power and devalues speed, which brings Gomes with his power potential more in line with Beltran, who has hit more than 30 dingers just once in his career. Maybe it's an auction league and Beltran is absurdly overpriced at $50 while Gomes is a steal at $3, and the guy really needs the salary flexibility to build the rest of his team up.

Sure, on the surface Beltran for Gomes-Escobar seems somewhat unbalanced. But with virtually no additional information, a lot of assumptions are being made. And you know what they say about people who assume... :-b
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Postby CBMGreatOne » Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:29 am

Bullflop. I wouldn't bother to call you out but for your last asinine comment.

Assumptions don't have to be made in this situation. You are merely earnestly asserting the best possible case scenario benefit of the doubt where it doesn't even apply. The person who made this trade KNOWS he fleeced the other dude. You can't rationalize team needs when the value is this different.

Don't bother with the high and mighty nonsense.
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Postby bigdawg78 » Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:04 am

i would agree with both sides here and ill give my reasons here shortly..
I agree that any team should try to get the best players possible in any trade...i made a trade earlier in the season with Prince Fielder for Mark Teixeira... now on the surface this is a horrible trade...Prince Fielder was a WW pick up for me, while Teix was a high Rd1 pick.. but at the same time Teix was on a horrilbe power slump while Fielder was beast in his 1st month (well not beast but better than Teix)...

on the other hand that is an insainly lopsided deal for Beltran.. even if he has Crawford, Manny, and Bay i would say 99% of leagues have a U spot...+ if he has 5 first rounders in his OF he still coulda got a better P and why would he get Gomes?..

Lopsided deals can be made and still be somewhat fair... this was not close and should either be vetoed or sent back... IMO.... i HATE vetoing trades, and this would have been 1 that i would have vetoed.. only 2 reasons you veto a trade... 1 is collusion when a last place team..or next to last...or what ever... just sells his team for crap... the 2nd is taking unfair advantage of an owner who doesnt know too much... if it was my league tho that owner (the one who gave up Beltran) would not be in there next yr...

should you have guilt? yes...you got away with a steal.. a BIG steal.. Beltran is producing at top3 pick right now... you gave him 2 bottom dwellers for a 1st rounder...
if you cant hang with the bigdawg get on the porch :)
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