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The Return of Pete Rose

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Postby benjapage » Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:06 pm

blank, you make good sense. i respect your rant.

if pete bet on his team, did it cause him to perform at a lower level? we don't know for sure, obviously, but he has more hits than anyone...a record that's not likely to be broken. he hustled harder than anyone, played his balls off. if he did bet on his team, you can be assured he bet *for* his team.

and i know, i know...it's not right. no matter what it's not right. but it's not like they found cork in his bat, and it turns out all those hits were aided by some artificial enhancement. or years later it turns out he was juicing. mcgwire and sosa will be enshrined.

his play was pure. and that should be rewarded. if they want to put underneath the plaque that he's a liar and that his gambling severely threatened his admission to the hall, well fine. if they want to dangle a huge asterisk, like a snowflake, floating in front of the plaque, hey that's fine, too.

but his play was pure, and if you're so concerned about setting precedent, blankman, in an age where the soon-to-be home run king is allowed to wrap an XXXL parka around his elbow and stand on top of the plate, back off and belt one down the line, and just strike a pose there and watch it go...then please set the precedent that hustle and feverish bodily sacrifice are what perpetuate the mysterious fascination our country has developed for the game.

when pete rose left the field, we lost the last bona fide hustler. sadly, in more ways than one.

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Postby Lofunzo » Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:08 pm

LCBOY wrote: This is one of my pet peeves. The HoF is very hypocritical in that they banned Rose but still have his stuff on display. If they don't want Pete in, then take dwon all the Pete Rose displays. Why should the HoF "profit" from Rose's name?


I somewhat agree but HIS ACCOMPLISHMENTS deserve to be in the hall while HE does not (right now, at least) because he broke the rules. Maybe he should have just got his rush from coke instead of betting because he would be in but he didn't just break A rule, he broke THE rule.

The hall displays stuff all of the time. If some no one player hits 5 homers in a game, they will probably display his bat with the accomplishment. That doesn't mean that he deserves to be in there. Just that his accomplishment does.
Last edited by Lofunzo on Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby blankman » Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:10 pm

LCBOY wrote:This is one of my pet peeves. The HoF is very hypocritical in that they banned Rose but still have his stuff on display. If they don't want Pete in, then take down all the Pete Rose displays. Why should the HoF "profit" from Rose's name?


My take is that they are simply representing history. I'm sure they have memorabilia from other non-HOFers- I don't know who (probably some stuff from Cone/Wells perfect games), for the purpose of representing the history of the game. Otherwise, you people could go through it and wonder who the hit king is. Having his stuff there represents history and thats it IMO.
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Postby Lofunzo » Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:13 pm

benjapage wrote: if he did bet on his team, you can be assured he bet *for* his team.


That's just it. Even if he bet only on his team, which is still wrong because it could affect the way that he managed his team, it still affects the integrity of the game. It also affected betting as if he didn't bet on the Reds to win, then that can be assumed to mean that he didn't expect to win that night and people could bet against them with confidence. There is no exact science to betting but any edge helps.
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Postby The Dude » Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:31 pm

Let's just put the rules aside for a second, because I don't buy the rules argument because I don't like rules... its too "letter of the law" for me and I'm more of a "spirit of the law" kind of guy.

From a "spirit of the law" standpoint (i.e. why isn't betting allowed on baseball), the reason has to be because of the old White Sox team that threw the World Series...

So, put aside the rule and ask, did Pete do anything that was wrong - i.e. would affect the game outcomes? Its my understanding that Pete bet on his own team winning. It would certainly be problematic if he was betting on his own team losing, but winning, what's he going to do - cheat to win? I realize that there are rules and regulations and standards of appropriate conduct here, but do you think Pete managed differently because he bet on games? I don't...

In a sense, he was buying stock in his own team... I don't see how this affected any baseball outcomes...

And for this reason, I think the rules should be bent, and the crazy old man should be in the Hall so we don't have to hear about this anymore.

But I'm dying to be proven wrong here...
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Postby Pogotheostrich » Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:35 pm

Here is what I think should happen
Once he admits he bet on baseball he can be enshrined in the HOF but never ever work in MLB again. If he doesn't admit to it, he can be enshrined postmortem.
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Postby benjapage » Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:47 pm

i'll agree with that, pogo. who would have thought the voice of reason would be named "pogo the ostrich"?

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Postby LCBOY » Tue Aug 12, 2003 2:08 pm

Pogotheostrich wrote:Here is what I think should happen
Once he admits he bet on baseball he can be enshrined in the HOF but never ever work in MLB again. If he doesn't admit to it, he can be enshrined postmortem.


I keep changing my mind on this. Does it make sense to put Rose in the HoF is he can't be a manager, coach, bat boy, ball retriever, etc. He can't work in baseball but he would be eligible to given baseball's highest honor, a plaque in Cooperstown? I just dunno?
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Postby Bballplaya87 » Tue Aug 12, 2003 2:11 pm

Benjapage,
ty cobb was a vicious criminal. completely unlikeable, as stories go. but the hall of fame should not be a popularity contest


Please provide me with an example as to where Ty Cobb is a vicious criminal. You obviously are just basing this on what the media has said because Ty Cobb was a great man on and off the field. Ty Cobb also had one of the highest percentage of votes to get into the hall so I guess an unpopular criminal won that popularity contest. As for the issue at hand, Rose deserves to be in the hall. He bet on games but so what? He was a terrific player in his day and if the hall accepts his accomplishments they must accept the man. As for the whole arrogant thing, well if you were a player who was as skilled as Rose was I think he has more than a little bit of a right to be cocky.
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Postby Lofunzo » Tue Aug 12, 2003 2:14 pm

The Dude wrote: So, put aside the rule and ask, did Pete do anything that was wrong - i.e. would affect the game outcomes? Its my understanding that Pete bet on his own team winning. It would certainly be problematic if he was betting on his own team losing, but winning, what's he going to do - cheat to win? I realize that there are rules and regulations and standards of appropriate conduct here, but do you think Pete managed differently because he bet on games? I don't...

In a sense, he was buying stock in his own team... I don't see how this affected any baseball outcomes...

And for this reason, I think the rules should be bent, and the crazy old man should be in the Hall so we don't have to hear about this anymore.

But I'm dying to be proven wrong here...


You're dying to be proven wrong? Here it comes then. First off, you say that you don't THINK that he managed differently. Unless it is 100% certain that he didn't manage differently, then I believe that he should be punished. I can give you tons of reasons how he might have managed differently. Here's 1. Let's say he has a stud pitcher who has thrown 110 pitches through 7 innings and old Pete has placed a bet on the game. It's 2-1 and he runs the stud out for the last 2 innings and he throws another 30-40 pitches. Pete gets his money and the pitcher gets a visit to Dr. Jobe for elbow surgery. Sound fair? If there is even a chance that something like this happened, then he needs to face the consequences. I would love to see him in the hall but he did the crime.
Last edited by Lofunzo on Tue Aug 12, 2003 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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