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Postby The Loveable Losers » Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:16 pm

dawgs2010 wrote:Putz won't get too expensive the Mariners will pay especially since when Putz is about to get that much in the next few years Eddie will be long gone and there will be that money available.


Not sure how many years are left on Putz's or Soriano's contracts nor how long they have left on their arbitration clocks. I'm thinking longer term though about when they start getting close to the end of arbitration...whichever one is closing will likely be up for a BIG contract at the end of their arbitration years. That's when they're going to have to sell that one off and sign the other one to a longer term (but smaller) contract. It's funny how both of them are extremely talented but the only one that will get the big payday will be the one that gets to pitch the 9th. :-b
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Postby reynolds80 » Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:23 pm

mweir145 wrote:
reynolds80 wrote:I don't think people realize how dominant Putz is.

He is having one of the best seasons by a reliever in baseball history.

34 innings, 6 walks, 46 strikeouts

You serious? :-?

I mean he's had a great season, and I would know better than anybody since I used my waiver priority on him a few months back, but maybe you should look at the stats of some of the other closers in the league before saying that (such as Papelbon, Ryan and Gordon). All 3 of those guys are having outstanding years, and yes al 3 of them have been better than JJ Putz.


Yeah, I am serious.

I didn't say the best season ever, I said one of the best ever.

Papelbon also happens to be having one of the best seasons by a reliever as well, as is Ryan. Gordon is having a great year, but I wouldn't put it in the same class as Putz, Papelbon, and Ryan.

Then again, my criteria for how well a reliever is pitching goes more on things he can control like strikeout, walk, and homerun rates. I discount things like hit rates and earned runs; although they're somewhat important they're not as important as the aforementioned.

Putz 34IP, 6BB, 46K

Papelbon 36IP, 4BB, 35K
Ryan 35IP, 7BB, 42K
Gordon 31IP, 9BB, 40K

Final note - we aren't even to July yet, so it's really not uncommon for a handful of guys to start off with ridiculous stats. Usually they sort themselves out, and at the end of the season, at most one or two relievers wind up with seasons that go down in the top 15 or 20 in baseball history.
Last edited by reynolds80 on Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The Loveable Losers » Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:30 pm

reynolds80 wrote:Yeah, I am serious.

I didn't say the best season ever, I said one of the best ever.

Papelbon also happens to be having one of the best seasons by a reliever as well, as is Ryan. Gordon is having a great year, but I wouldn't put it in the same class as Putz, Papelbon, and Ryan.

Then again, my criteria for how well a reliever is pitching goes more on things he can control like strikeout, walk, and homerun rates. I discount things like hit rates and earned runs, although they're important they're not as important as the aforementioned.

Putz 34IP, 6BB, 46K

Papelbon 36IP, 4BB, 35K
Ryan 35IP, 7BB, 42K
Gordon 31IP, 9BB, 40K


Here you go then...if that's your criteria (and I agree that it's a very worthwhile criteria to use) then here's possibly the best season from a reliever ever.

73.1ip 2hr 4bb 73k

Bonus points to anyone that can name that stat line. :D

Edit: Just wanted to add that this skill set projects to a 1.53era and 0.884whip. Those are well above what he actually posted though but if I post the real era and whip that would make it too easy as they stand out like a sore thumb. ;)
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Postby Chrisy Moltisanti » Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:44 pm

reynolds80 wrote:I don't think people realize how dominant Putz is.

He is having one of the best seasons by a reliever in baseball history.

34 innings, 6 walks, 46 strikeouts


You meant Papelbon and Ryan. Plenty of guys have put up good/great seasons up to this point as Putz has. The difference is even if Papelbon or Ryan is mediocre in the second half, they still will have great end of year numbers. 2.01/0.82 is nice, but it's a far cry from what the other two have done. You are also forgetting that Putz plays in a pitchers park and against weaker talent compared to both Paps and Ryan, who play in toughest hitting division by far and in hitters parks making their accomplishments even more significant. They also have far more saves. The more opps the more chance for failure, Putz hasn't been tested as they have been. If you want to include all RP, then you have many more great years to compare to as well. The ratios are nice, but the deal breaker in the big three qualifiers is the HR rate.


Relievers Expected Wins Added (WXRL)

1. Paps 4
2. Ryan 3.3


16. Putz 2.01

VORP

24. Paps 24

31. Ryan 22.5


55. Putz 14.5


Quality of Batters Faced by Qualified OPS

Ryan 0.785
Paps 0.775
Putz 0.763
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Postby Chrisy Moltisanti » Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:46 pm

The Loveable Losers wrote:Here you go then...if that's your criteria (and I agree that it's a very worthwhile criteria to use) then here's possibly the best season from a reliever ever.

73.1ip 2hr 4bb 73k

Bonus points to anyone that can name that stat line. :D

Edit: Just wanted to add that this skill set projects to a 1.53era and 0.884whip. Those are well above what he actually posted though but if I post the real era and whip that would make it too easy as they stand out like a sore thumb. ;)


Until Paps breaks it, that's also the highest ERA+ rated season ever. (50 IP min.) I won't spoil it for the others.
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Postby The Loveable Losers » Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:51 pm

Chrisy Moltisanti wrote:
The Loveable Losers wrote:Here you go then...if that's your criteria (and I agree that it's a very worthwhile criteria to use) then here's possibly the best season from a reliever ever.

73.1ip 2hr 4bb 73k

Bonus points to anyone that can name that stat line. :D

Edit: Just wanted to add that this skill set projects to a 1.53era and 0.884whip. Those are well above what he actually posted though but if I post the real era and whip that would make it too easy as they stand out like a sore thumb. ;)


Until Paps breaks it, that's also the highest ERA+ rated season ever. (50 IP min.) I won't spoil it for the others.


That's my favorite season ever from any pitcher because I played Pursue the Pennant (tabletop baseball sim) back in the day. Had him as my closer and two other 'nasty' relievers to set him up. If I made it to the 7th with the lead it was OVER.
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Postby bigh0rt » Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:11 pm

The Loveable Losers wrote:
Chrisy Moltisanti wrote:
The Loveable Losers wrote:Here you go then...if that's your criteria (and I agree that it's a very worthwhile criteria to use) then here's possibly the best season from a reliever ever.

73.1ip 2hr 4bb 73k

Bonus points to anyone that can name that stat line. :D

Edit: Just wanted to add that this skill set projects to a 1.53era and 0.884whip. Those are well above what he actually posted though but if I post the real era and whip that would make it too easy as they stand out like a sore thumb. ;)


Until Paps breaks it, that's also the highest ERA+ rated season ever. (50 IP min.) I won't spoil it for the others.


That's my favorite season ever from any pitcher because I played Pursue the Pennant (tabletop baseball sim) back in the day. Had him as my closer and two other 'nasty' relievers to set him up. If I made it to the 7th with the lead it was OVER.


I'll go ahead and play spoiler...

Dennis Eck - 1990. Carried a 0.61 ERA and 0.614 WHIP to go along with his insane K/BB ratios that year. Only 41 H and 5 ER allowed all year.
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Postby The Loveable Losers » Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:45 pm

bigh0rt wrote:
The Loveable Losers wrote:
Chrisy Moltisanti wrote:
The Loveable Losers wrote:Here you go then...if that's your criteria (and I agree that it's a very worthwhile criteria to use) then here's possibly the best season from a reliever ever.

73.1ip 2hr 4bb 73k

Bonus points to anyone that can name that stat line. :D

Edit: Just wanted to add that this skill set projects to a 1.53era and 0.884whip. Those are well above what he actually posted though but if I post the real era and whip that would make it too easy as they stand out like a sore thumb. ;)


Until Paps breaks it, that's also the highest ERA+ rated season ever. (50 IP min.) I won't spoil it for the others.


That's my favorite season ever from any pitcher because I played Pursue the Pennant (tabletop baseball sim) back in the day. Had him as my closer and two other 'nasty' relievers to set him up. If I made it to the 7th with the lead it was OVER.


I'll go ahead and play spoiler...

Dennis Eck - 1990. Carried a 0.61 ERA and 0.614 WHIP to go along with his insane K/BB ratios that year. Only 41 H and 5 ER allowed all year.


What a season...now I'll let the cat out of the bag on my complete Pursue the Pennant bullpen when we played the 1990 season. Eckersley, Rob Dibble and Randy Myers. Too bad the rest of the team stunk to high heaven other than first round/first overall pick Rickey Henderson. Too bad I only had one of him since the rest of the batting order became known as 'the countdown to Rickey'.
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Postby reynolds80 » Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:09 am

Chrisy Moltisanti wrote:
reynolds80 wrote:I don't think people realize how dominant Putz is.

He is having one of the best seasons by a reliever in baseball history.

34 innings, 6 walks, 46 strikeouts


You meant Papelbon and Ryan. Plenty of guys have put up good/great seasons up to this point as Putz has. The difference is even if Papelbon or Ryan is mediocre in the second half, they still will have great end of year numbers. 2.01/0.82 is nice, but it's a far cry from what the other two have done. You are also forgetting that Putz plays in a pitchers park and against weaker talent compared to both Paps and Ryan, who play in toughest hitting division by far and in hitters parks making their accomplishments even more significant. They also have far more saves. The more opps the more chance for failure, Putz hasn't been tested as they have been. If you want to include all RP, then you have many more great years to compare to as well. The ratios are nice, but the deal breaker in the big three qualifiers is the HR rate.


Relievers Expected Wins Added (WXRL)

1. Paps 4
2. Ryan 3.3


16. Putz 2.01

VORP

24. Paps 24

31. Ryan 22.5


55. Putz 14.5


Quality of Batters Faced by Qualified OPS

Ryan 0.785
Paps 0.775
Putz 0.763


Points well taken, as I use BP's stats extensively as well. Although I'm not sure exactly how WXRL is computed, one thing I do know is that Putz is on pace for an extrapolated 74 IP, 14 BB, and 101 K. I doubt there would be any argument, if he were to finish with those numbers, as to whether or not it is one of the greatest seasons by a reliever in baseball history.
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Postby mweir145 » Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:15 am

reynolds80 wrote:
Chrisy Moltisanti wrote:
reynolds80 wrote:I don't think people realize how dominant Putz is.

He is having one of the best seasons by a reliever in baseball history.

34 innings, 6 walks, 46 strikeouts


You meant Papelbon and Ryan. Plenty of guys have put up good/great seasons up to this point as Putz has. The difference is even if Papelbon or Ryan is mediocre in the second half, they still will have great end of year numbers. 2.01/0.82 is nice, but it's a far cry from what the other two have done. You are also forgetting that Putz plays in a pitchers park and against weaker talent compared to both Paps and Ryan, who play in toughest hitting division by far and in hitters parks making their accomplishments even more significant. They also have far more saves. The more opps the more chance for failure, Putz hasn't been tested as they have been. If you want to include all RP, then you have many more great years to compare to as well. The ratios are nice, but the deal breaker in the big three qualifiers is the HR rate.


Relievers Expected Wins Added (WXRL)

1. Paps 4
2. Ryan 3.3


16. Putz 2.01

VORP

24. Paps 24

31. Ryan 22.5


55. Putz 14.5


Quality of Batters Faced by Qualified OPS

Ryan 0.785
Paps 0.775
Putz 0.763


Points well taken, as I use BP's stats extensively as well. Although I'm not sure exactly how WXRL is computed, one thing I do know is that Putz is on pace for an extrapolated 74 IP, 14 BB, and 101 K. I doubt there would be any argument, if he were to finish with those numbers, as to whether or not it is one of the greatest seasons by a reliever in baseball history.

Well if he gave up 74 hits along with that line, then yes...there would be some question.
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