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I'm finally starting to hate h2h...

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I'm finally starting to hate h2h...

Postby tinfoilxtouch » Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:05 am

Everyone always says that too much luck is involved in h2h leagues. On the other hand, I've always thought that even over the course of a week, things will even out...

Until this week.

I'll save the details of my roster, but basically I've built an all-star team at one oblivious owner's expense. We've done five or six deals this year, and almost all of them have been close to being vetoed for favoring me. At the moment, (excluding catcher), the latest any of my hitters were drafted is 41st overall. He has nobody left drafted in the top 50, except for Ichiro. This week we finally faced off...

I'm down 13 runs and 16 RBI. After three days. 8-o

It makes me wish there was a "toss-away" week, for the series in which your team is furthest away from their statistical mean. :-[

Maybe next season I will look into roto.
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Postby BritSox » Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:10 am

So what? It's the regular season, all weeks are worth the same. Luck should definitely cancel out over that period of time. The luck aspect is more an issue with the playoffs.
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Postby ThisOneGuy » Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:44 am

Try a H2H points league, if you think that's bad. I'm finally starting to hate my money league that I've been in for years.

In a points league, ERA, WHIP, etc. don't matter, so you're better off with 3-4 spots at the end of your bench that you can use to pick up '2-start' guys each week.

There is no innings limit and since ERA and WHIP mean nothing, the only penalty for starting an average pitcher is you might not get a lot of points, but with 2 starts, there's a very good chance you'll outscore a good 1-start pitcher. Since wins depend so much on the rest of a pitcher's team, a lot of times these 2-start guys will luck into 2 wins in a week and have a real good shot at at least 1. So really, you're probably better off starting an average 2-start guy over a really good pitcher who only starts once that week.

What this has done to our league is this:

Noone has any hitters on their bench, literally. You just can't afford it.

Some teams start 7 starting pitchers and no closers every week.

Some teams cut 3-4 guys every Monday and pick up 3-4 '2-start' guys for the next week.

Teams who have quality guys at the end of their bench are unable to do this, so you're basically rewarded for drafting a team with a bunch of expendable players at the end of your bench.

The worst part about it is, our whole league has basically come down to who has more 2-start pitchers for the week. If you have 5 2-start guys and your opponent only has 2, you're basically guaranteed a win for that week. It's getting worse too, as more owners are realizing this is what you need to do to win.

It just doesn't seem like that's how fantasy baseball was meant to be played.

So, in your league, guys can luck into a win every once in a while, but at least they can't cheese their way into a bunch of wins throughout the season, or even a championship.
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Postby g-dawg » Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:54 am

I love H2H. While a team can be lucky or unlucky at times, usually only the best teams make the playoffs. It's much more like real baseball - the best team doesn't always win - kind of like the Yankees don't always beat the Devil Rays. But over the course of the season, the best teams will rise to the top. The playoffs are also exciting, anybody can win. In the last two H2H leagues I won, the lowest ranked team in the playoffs (6th out of 6 teams) came in 2nd, which is kind of like wildcard teams making it to the World Series. I mean, how boring would baseball be if the season just ended and we crowned a champion?

IMO, H2H is the best way to play fantasy baseball. Sure it takes some luck to win, but what sport doesn't?
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Postby apz » Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:03 am

ThisOneGuy wrote:Try a H2H points league, if you think that's bad. I'm finally starting to hate my money league that I've been in for years.

In a points league, ERA, WHIP, etc. don't matter, so you're better off with 3-4 spots at the end of your bench that you can use to pick up '2-start' guys each week.

There is no innings limit and since ERA and WHIP mean nothing, the only penalty for starting an average pitcher is you might not get a lot of points, but with 2 starts, there's a very good chance you'll outscore a good 1-start pitcher. Since wins depend so much on the rest of a pitcher's team, a lot of times these 2-start guys will luck into 2 wins in a week and have a real good shot at at least 1. So really, you're probably better off starting an average 2-start guy over a really good pitcher who only starts once that week.

What this has done to our league is this:

Noone has any hitters on their bench, literally. You just can't afford it.

Some teams start 7 starting pitchers and no closers every week.

Some teams cut 3-4 guys every Monday and pick up 3-4 '2-start' guys for the next week.

Teams who have quality guys at the end of their bench are unable to do this, so you're basically rewarded for drafting a team with a bunch of expendable players at the end of your bench.

The worst part about it is, our whole league has basically come down to who has more 2-start pitchers for the week. If you have 5 2-start guys and your opponent only has 2, you're basically guaranteed a win for that week. It's getting worse too, as more owners are realizing this is what you need to do to win.

It just doesn't seem like that's how fantasy baseball was meant to be played.

So, in your league, guys can luck into a win every once in a while, but at least they can't cheese their way into a bunch of wins throughout the season, or even a championship.

Guys try to do this in my h2h points league and it rarely works. I've won many weeks with my 4-5 starts with quality pitchers over the other teams 9-10 starts with some lousy 2 starters. We also have the option of using a DH or a 5th starter. I always use my dh, which just about assures me of another 15-20 points. I love h2h points.
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Re: I'm finally starting to hate h2h...

Postby rainman23 » Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:13 pm

tinfoilxtouch wrote:Everyone always says that too much luck is involved in h2h leagues. On the other hand, I've always thought that even over the course of a week, things will even out...

Until this week.

I'll save the details of my roster, but basically I've built an all-star team at one oblivious owner's expense. We've done five or six deals this year, and almost all of them have been close to being vetoed for favoring me. At the moment, (excluding catcher), the latest any of my hitters were drafted is 41st overall. He has nobody left drafted in the top 50, except for Ichiro. This week we finally faced off...

I'm down 13 runs and 16 RBI. After three days. 8-o

It makes me wish there was a "toss-away" week, for the series in which your team is furthest away from their statistical mean. :-[

Maybe next season I will look into roto.


It sounds like karma to me. Good for him. May all your ill-gotten players be cursed.

That aside -- no, of course it doesn't all even out over the course of a week. That's one of the things that makes H2H fun. Over the course of a season though -- yeah, your ill-gotten roster will wind up around the same place it would in Roto.
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Postby ThisOneGuy » Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:19 pm

apz wrote:
ThisOneGuy wrote:Try a H2H points league, if you think that's bad. I'm finally starting to hate my money league that I've been in for years.

In a points league, ERA, WHIP, etc. don't matter, so you're better off with 3-4 spots at the end of your bench that you can use to pick up '2-start' guys each week.

There is no innings limit and since ERA and WHIP mean nothing, the only penalty for starting an average pitcher is you might not get a lot of points, but with 2 starts, there's a very good chance you'll outscore a good 1-start pitcher. Since wins depend so much on the rest of a pitcher's team, a lot of times these 2-start guys will luck into 2 wins in a week and have a real good shot at at least 1. So really, you're probably better off starting an average 2-start guy over a really good pitcher who only starts once that week.

What this has done to our league is this:

Noone has any hitters on their bench, literally. You just can't afford it.

Some teams start 7 starting pitchers and no closers every week.

Some teams cut 3-4 guys every Monday and pick up 3-4 '2-start' guys for the next week.

Teams who have quality guys at the end of their bench are unable to do this, so you're basically rewarded for drafting a team with a bunch of expendable players at the end of your bench.

The worst part about it is, our whole league has basically come down to who has more 2-start pitchers for the week. If you have 5 2-start guys and your opponent only has 2, you're basically guaranteed a win for that week. It's getting worse too, as more owners are realizing this is what you need to do to win.

It just doesn't seem like that's how fantasy baseball was meant to be played.

So, in your league, guys can luck into a win every once in a while, but at least they can't cheese their way into a bunch of wins throughout the season, or even a championship.


Guys try to do this in my h2h points league and it rarely works. I've won many weeks with my 4-5 starts with quality pitchers over the other teams 9-10 starts with some lousy 2 starters. We also have the option of using a DH or a 5th starter. I always use my dh, which just about assures me of another 15-20 points. I love h2h points.


I guess it depends on your scoring system. In our league, a good start, in which the pitcher doesn't get a victory (say his team doesn't score any runs) will net you about 12-15 points.

A win by a pitcher is 10 points just for the win, plus his peripheral points. So if a guy has 2 starts in a week, he has a good chance of getting at least one win. Say he has a bad start (5 points) and a win (25 points) That's a 30 point week.

Compare that to a good starter (a #1 or 2 fantasy starter) with only 1 start. A win will get you about 25 points, but say his team scores no runs or the bullpen blows the lead, now he's only getting 12-15 points for the week.

Now, let's say the 2-start bum gets lucky and gets 2 wins in the week. Now you're talking 40-50 points, which is nearly impossible for even the best 1-start guy to get in a week.

Sure, the risk is there for your crappy 2-start guys to have 2 bad games and get you a 5-point week, (S. Marshall got me 1.76 points in a 2-start week) but the chances of them having at least one good game is very good, they are Major League pitchers, after all. This makes a 2-start Rodrigo Lopez a much better option than a 1-start Barry Zito. That just doesn't seem right.

I'm not sure what the solution is, perhaps devaluing wins by pitchers, setting an innings limit, or maybe making benches bigger, so the pool of 2-start waiver wire guys is smaller and teams have to rely more on their own bench. Or maybe the best bet is to go with the flow and do it myself, but I just don't think cutting half your team (exaggerating here) every week is the way fantasy was meant to be played.

Granted, H2H is exciting and every team has a chance to win every week, but I don't want to lose in the playoffs because my opponent bombarded me with 30 more innings pitched.
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Postby apz » Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:28 pm

Perhaps your league needs to have more negatives for pitching. We use
ER = -2
hit = -.5
loss = -5
walk = -.5

With this, a low quality starter will often end up with a negative score for a start without a win. Even a win where the pitcher allows a bunch of hits and some runs won't net many points. We also have 10 points for a win.
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Postby ThisOneGuy » Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:45 pm

apz wrote:Perhaps your league needs to have more negatives for pitching. We use
ER = -2
hit = -.5
loss = -5
walk = -.5

With this, a low quality starter will often end up with a negative score for a start without a win. Even a win where the pitcher allows a bunch of hits and some runs won't net many points. We also have 10 points for a win.


We use:

ER = -1
hit = -.5
loss = nothing
walk = -.5

I like yours better, the extra -1 per ER and especially the -5 for a loss sounds like a great idea, but I think we've had this discussion before (my leaguemates) and the counter-argument was that wins and losses were too much out of a pitcher's control, but you could make the same argument with regards to 10 points for a win.

Thanks for the feedback, I'll bring this up for discussion, for next year.
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Postby bolkonsky » Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:01 pm

I (reluctantly) quit a dynasty league like this for all the reasons you describe.

My team was stacked, but I was losing to guys starting Scott Hatteberg at 1B because they would rotate in 15-17 pitchers every week. I made the humble suggestion that we alter scoring or roster requirements in a few years (to allow teams to adjust), and when that was shot down I had to get out.

IMO there is no point in playing in a league where the draft/auction is essentially meaningless...bottom line is that it is not fun and does not reward knowledge. :-t
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