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To all Nolan Ryan dissers...

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Postby houstonoilers » Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:34 pm

Johan wins the Cy Young last year with run support....Couldnt Ryans case be the same if he was on better teams?
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Postby johnsamo » Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:55 pm

"Ks (270) and ERA (2.76) but had an 8-16 record."

exactly.... that many Ks and that era and just 8 wins. A good middle reliever can get 8 wins on a good team. Those #s are about as good as it ever gets for any pitcher and he can't even get double digit wins... that ain't Ryan's fault, that is crap run support.

One year was 33 starts, 299 innings, 2.77 era. 341 Ks (you read that right, 341 Ks) and he lost 16 games. How many 2.77 ERA pitchers you ever seen lose 16 games?

He had so many of those kind of years in the 70s and 80s....

With the exception of his rookie and final year, he never had an era over 4. 8 of those year he was under 3, and a lot of those over 3 years were JUST BARELY over 3, and yet he only won 20 or more games in a season twice.... Those were the years he was actually getting close to 400 Ks.

I don't know how to compute it, but if you took his career ERA and his innings pitched, and you took the league average for run support, I'm pretty certain he SHOULD have over 400 wins if he got even average run support.

And as for the walks, yeah they were high, but his really bad walk totals were in the 70s when he was starting every 4th game (41 and 42 starts in 1973 and 1974) and of those 83 starts, 52 were complete games. He was over-pitched and naturally walked guys because he was tired).... By the end of his career, when he would get relieved like regular pitchers, his walk totals were reasonable.
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Postby Tavish » Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:25 am

bigken117 wrote:dont let Tavish see this thread :-o


Too late. :-D

Pretty amazing he such an amazing amount of CG in that stretch. A little less amazing considering he led the league in complete games only once in his career.


1972 39 GS 20 CG 9 SHO 18 Wins

Two CG losses. One CG Loss he gave up 7 runs the other was 2-1 loss to Oakland (Blue Moon Odom, Vida Blue and Rollie Fingers). Had 6 starts he didn't make it out of the 4th inning (16.1 IP - 24 ER). Had 2 games where he gave up 6 runs or more.


1973 39 GS 26 CG 4 SHO 21 Wins

Lost in 6 CGs, he gave up 6 runs, 4 runs (twice), 3 runs, 2 runs (twice). Had 6 games where he gave up 6 or more runs.

1974 41 GS 26 CG 3 SHO 22 Wins

Lost in 9 CGs, he gave up 6 runs (twice), 5 runs (twice), 3 runs, 2 runs (3 times), and a 1-0 11 inning game against Lolich (who also pitched 11 innings). Had 9 games where he gave up 6 or more runs (one of them he did win).

1975 28 GS 10 CG 5 SHO 14 Wins

Lost 2 CG, he gave up 6 Runs (3 UER) and 2 runs. Had 7 games (25% of his games that season) where he gave up 6 or more runs.

1976 39 GS 21 CG 7 SHO 17 Wins

Lost 7 CG, 6 runs, 5 runs, 3 runs (3 times), 2 runs (twice). Had 5 games where he gave up 6 or more runs.

1977 37 GS 22 CG 4 SHO 19 Wins

Lost 11 CG, 7 runs, 5 runs, 4 runs (twice), 3 runs (7 times). Had 4 games where he gave up 6 or more runs. This is probably his worst luck year of all his Angels' years.

1978 31 GS 14 CG 3 SHO 10 Wins

Lost 4 CG. 9 runs, 4 runs, 3 runs, and a 1-0 CG loss to Rick Langford. Had 7 games where he gave up 6 or more runs. Ryan finishes below .500 for the first time with the Angels, which he happens to do the first year the Angels finish above .500 with Ryan there.

1979 34 Gs 17 CG 5 SHO 16 Wins

Lost 4 CG giving up 3 runs in all of them. Had 6 games where he gave up 6 or more runs.


Angels years - 330 GS 156 CG 40 SHO 138 Wins

45 Losses in CG. 46 games allowing 6 or more runs.
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Postby Tavish » Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:49 am

With the exception of his rookie and final year, he never had an era over 4. 8 of those year he was under 3, and a lot of those over 3 years were JUST BARELY over 3, and yet he only won 20 or more games in a season twice.... Those were the years he was actually getting close to 400 Ks.


Ignoring his rookie season and last season Ryan was in the top 10 for ERA in his league 8 times in 25 season and in the top 5 5 times. In what amounts to 16 seasons as a starter, Kevin Brown has 7 top tens and 6 top fives. But Kevin Brown didn't strike guys out enough to fit the "All-Time Great" mold I guess.

Based on just the comparison of his ERA vs the rest of the league:

9 of the 25 seasons he was basically league average ( 95 - 105 ERA+)
3 of the 25 seasons he was a below average pitcher ( 95 or lower ERA+)
7 of the 25 seasons he was an above average pitcher (105 - 120 ERA+)
5 of the 25 seasons he was an excellent pitcher ( 120 - 175 ERA+)
And the last one was 1981 which was a legendary type year. In comparison to the rest of the league it was the only season he ever had that even cracks the top 100 greatest seasons ever (#43).
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Postby acsguitar » Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:50 am

Tavish wrote:
bigken117 wrote:dont let Tavish see this thread :-o


Too late. :-D

Pretty amazing he such an amazing amount of CG in that stretch. A little less amazing considering he led the league in complete games only once in his career.


1972 39 GS 20 CG 9 SHO 18 Wins

Two CG losses. One CG Loss he gave up 7 runs the other was 2-1 loss to Oakland (Blue Moon Odom, Vida Blue and Rollie Fingers). Had 6 starts he didn't make it out of the 4th inning (16.1 IP - 24 ER). Had 2 games where he gave up 6 runs or more.


1973 39 GS 26 CG 4 SHO 21 Wins

Lost in 6 CGs, he gave up 6 runs, 4 runs (twice), 3 runs, 2 runs (twice). Had 6 games where he gave up 6 or more runs.

1974 41 GS 26 CG 3 SHO 22 Wins

Lost in 9 CGs, he gave up 6 runs (twice), 5 runs (twice), 3 runs, 2 runs (3 times), and a 1-0 11 inning game against Lolich (who also pitched 11 innings). Had 9 games where he gave up 6 or more runs (one of them he did win).

1975 28 GS 10 CG 5 SHO 14 Wins

Lost 2 CG, he gave up 6 Runs (3 UER) and 2 runs. Had 7 games (25% of his games that season) where he gave up 6 or more runs.

1976 39 GS 21 CG 7 SHO 17 Wins

Lost 7 CG, 6 runs, 5 runs, 3 runs (3 times), 2 runs (twice). Had 5 games where he gave up 6 or more runs.

1977 37 GS 22 CG 4 SHO 19 Wins

Lost 11 CG, 7 runs, 5 runs, 4 runs (twice), 3 runs (7 times). Had 4 games where he gave up 6 or more runs. This is probably his worst luck year of all his Angels' years.

1978 31 GS 14 CG 3 SHO 10 Wins

Lost 4 CG. 9 runs, 4 runs, 3 runs, and a 1-0 CG loss to Rick Langford. Had 7 games where he gave up 6 or more runs. Ryan finishes below .500 for the first time with the Angels, which he happens to do the first year the Angels finish above .500 with Ryan there.

1979 34 Gs 17 CG 5 SHO 16 Wins

Lost 4 CG giving up 3 runs in all of them. Had 6 games where he gave up 6 or more runs.


Angels years - 330 GS 156 CG 40 SHO 138 Wins

45 Losses in CG. 46 games allowing 6 or more runs.


Ha...you really hate him huh.

California was a better pitcher anyways
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Postby WittyC » Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:21 am

TheYanks04 wrote:
rentz wrote:
great gretzky wrote:bears repeating, he punked robin ventura SO bad. One of my favorite sporting incidents ever. I love handing out the ventura award to acts that are majorly sissy. Ryan just put him down, it was great.


i was at that game ;-D



Ventura is never going to live that down.


Maybe so... but he nearly made up for it during that rain delay when he eye-blacked on the Piazza-stache and ran the bases. :-b
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Postby Tavish » Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:23 am

acsguitar wrote:Ha...you really hate him huh.

California was a better pitcher anyways


I don't hate him, but anyone who thinks of him as an all-time great pitcher refuses to see he was not much more effective than Al Leiter.

If you thought of a pitcher as getting knocked around when he gave up 10 hits, Ryan only had 22 "rough games" in his career which is outstanding. If you think of a pitcher not having great control during a game when they give up 5+ walks Ryan had 230 "rough days" which is not so outstanding.
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Postby bigh0rt » Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:37 am

Tavish 'Tha Thread Killah' strikes again. Nice stats.
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Postby J35J » Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:39 am

I've always agreed with Tavish on this subject.

Nice job Tav! !+)


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Postby noseeum » Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:26 am

Look, everyone should agree that Nolan Ryan was an amazing pitcher. He did things no one else ever did and probably had more talent than any but a handful of pitchers.

That said, he had some major weaknesses. When you walk that many people, you're just not elite. He never won the Cy Young. Doesn't that tell you something?

He's made some top ten lists before, but if you're a big fan of his, you won't like the names of those lists:
http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/alltimeoverrated.html

Nicely summed up in wikipedia:
Despite Ryan's longevity and statistics, his legacy has been questioned due to his many losses--for his career, he was only 32 games over .500, and his "average" season saw him post a record of 13-12--to some extent justifying Bavasi's criticisms.[3] By comparison, Koufax was 78 games over .500 in a much shorter career, and Cy Young 195 games over .500. His 292 losses rank him third overall, and first among pitchers who played entirely after 1900. He ranked in the top ten in the league in wins eight times, and in losses eight times. Despite the common belief that Ryan played mostly for bad teams, his teams (disregarding Ryan's own wins and losses) had a .503 winning percentage over his career (.506, if you disregard the 1966 New York Mets for which he pitched three innings and which lost 95 games).[1][2] Thus, his winning percentage was only, at best, .023 better than the teams he played on (Walter Johnson, by comparison, was better by .107 than the teams he played on) He had little success in leading teams to the postseason, making it there only five times, and only once to the World Series--as a rookie with the Mets. Despite his spectacular statistics in the area of strikeouts, each counted only as one out, and his no-hitters each counted as only one win.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nolan_Ryan

That mediocre team argument is bubkus.
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