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Zumaya clocked at 102 mph !!!!!!!!!

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Postby mcqfesijiba » Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:36 pm

I still don't think we can count him out as a starter in the future yet. He's only 21 and will work on continuing to improve his curveball and changeup as he works out of the bullpen. He's definitely in the bullpen to stay for this year, but it'll be interesting to see where he ends up next year and beyond. Bottom line is he still has the potential to be EITHER a very good starter or very good closer.
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Postby johnsamo » Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:17 pm

Not all radar guns are created equal. I've seen the highlights, and it doesn't look quite that fast... TO me it looks 98 to 99, still fast though.

But a 100 mph pitch ain't what it used to be. Nearly every team has 2 or 3 players who can hit 97 or so. It didn't use to be so.

Back when Nolan Ryan was throwing upper 90s to 100, it was largely unhittable, but nowadays, it's not as intimidating as it used to be because hitters have become somewhat acclimated to the speed. When Ryan was throwing heat in the 1970s and 1980s, there were VERY FEW pitchers that were getting remotely near his speed, and certainly not a starter.

Most hitters were either in fear or just awed by him. I don't think any pitcher remotely has that effect on hitters today.

It wasn't just the speed, Ryan had that Clemens chin music fear factor. It was well known that in a high school game, he hit the first batter and broke his arm. How'd you like to b the next batter up and see that? And every pitch he grunted, which could be heard about anywhere in the stadium. That and in pregame, besides the grunt, you could hear a loud "POP" sound when it hit the catcher's glove.
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Postby Yoda » Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:10 pm

johnsamo wrote:Not all radar guns are created equal. I've seen the highlights, and it doesn't look quite that fast... TO me it looks 98 to 99, still fast though.

But a 100 mph pitch ain't what it used to be. Nearly every team has 2 or 3 players who can hit 97 or so. It didn't use to be so.

Back when Nolan Ryan was throwing upper 90s to 100, it was largely unhittable, but nowadays, it's not as intimidating as it used to be because hitters have become somewhat acclimated to the speed. When Ryan was throwing heat in the 1970s and 1980s, there were VERY FEW pitchers that were getting remotely near his speed, and certainly not a starter.

Most hitters were either in fear or just awed by him. I don't think any pitcher remotely has that effect on hitters today.

It wasn't just the speed, Ryan had that Clemens chin music fear factor. It was well known that in a high school game, he hit the first batter and broke his arm. How'd you like to b the next batter up and see that? And every pitch he grunted, which could be heard about anywhere in the stadium. That and in pregame, besides the grunt, you could hear a loud "POP" sound when it hit the catcher's glove.


Nolan Ryan in the 80s (especially with the Astros) had the sickest movement on his fastball I had every seen outside of Mike Scott, Mariano Rivera and Pedro Martinez all in their prime.
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Postby noseeum » Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:12 pm

johnsamo wrote:Not all radar guns are created equal. I've seen the highlights, and it doesn't look quite that fast... TO me it looks 98 to 99, still fast though.

But a 100 mph pitch ain't what it used to be. Nearly every team has 2 or 3 players who can hit 97 or so. It didn't use to be so.

Back when Nolan Ryan was throwing upper 90s to 100, it was largely unhittable, but nowadays, it's not as intimidating as it used to be because hitters have become somewhat acclimated to the speed. When Ryan was throwing heat in the 1970s and 1980s, there were VERY FEW pitchers that were getting remotely near his speed, and certainly not a starter.

Most hitters were either in fear or just awed by him. I don't think any pitcher remotely has that effect on hitters today.

It wasn't just the speed, Ryan had that Clemens chin music fear factor. It was well known that in a high school game, he hit the first batter and broke his arm. How'd you like to b the next batter up and see that? And every pitch he grunted, which could be heard about anywhere in the stadium. That and in pregame, besides the grunt, you could hear a loud "POP" sound when it hit the catcher's glove.


You could also hear a loud "bang" sound when it hit the backstop, and then a quiet "thump" sound when the batter tapped first base after getting walked by Ryan. It still amazes me when people put Ryan in the class of top 5 pitchers ever. Maybe best stuff ever, but way too many walks. Great pitcher, of course, but not one of the top 5 or 10.
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Postby Yoda » Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:19 pm

noseeum wrote:
johnsamo wrote:Not all radar guns are created equal. I've seen the highlights, and it doesn't look quite that fast... TO me it looks 98 to 99, still fast though.

But a 100 mph pitch ain't what it used to be. Nearly every team has 2 or 3 players who can hit 97 or so. It didn't use to be so.

Back when Nolan Ryan was throwing upper 90s to 100, it was largely unhittable, but nowadays, it's not as intimidating as it used to be because hitters have become somewhat acclimated to the speed. When Ryan was throwing heat in the 1970s and 1980s, there were VERY FEW pitchers that were getting remotely near his speed, and certainly not a starter.

Most hitters were either in fear or just awed by him. I don't think any pitcher remotely has that effect on hitters today.

It wasn't just the speed, Ryan had that Clemens chin music fear factor. It was well known that in a high school game, he hit the first batter and broke his arm. How'd you like to b the next batter up and see that? And every pitch he grunted, which could be heard about anywhere in the stadium. That and in pregame, besides the grunt, you could hear a loud "POP" sound when it hit the catcher's glove.


You could also hear a loud "bang" sound when it hit the backstop, and then a quiet "thump" sound when the batter tapped first base after getting walked by Ryan. It still amazes me when people put Ryan in the class of top 5 pitchers ever. Maybe best stuff ever, but way too many walks. Great pitcher, of course, but not one of the top 5 or 10.


Ryan was dominant for 3 decades. He was recording 200 Ks in his mid 40s. He holds the record for Ks. How is he not top 5 or 10 of all time?
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Postby mbuser » Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:46 pm

ryan does have the whole 'hardest pitcher to hit in the history of the game' argument going for him

http://www.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/his ... SubFrame=0
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Postby johnsamo » Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:08 pm

Clemens, who's 2nd in career Ks, could pitch for 8 more years averaging 200 K and still not catch Ryan's career K totals. That Career high gap between 1st and 2nd place is absurdly above any other career high category.

Ryan had the misfortune of never playing for a great team, especially in his prime. Before the "closer" era began, he also pitched an insane # of complete games, so he was a little tired late in games and during the season... He had numerous 300 plus inning years. And his walking years were more in the 70s.... He got better on location as he got older and lost velocity... but "lost" is relative. He was throwing 97 at the age of 45 but it still seemed like his 100 fastball because he developed a great changeup as his career went on.

There was also the "Ryan effect" where his teams almost consistantly scored less when he was pitching compared to the other pitchers. Some say it was a subconcious thing, where you knew your other pitchers needed more runs to win. Others say it was the awe effect, watching Ryan sort of took his players out of their usual in game mindset. Rather than focus on fielding or hitting, they spent too much time thinking and talking about how Ryan was mowing guys down.

If he'd had decent run support, 400 wins would've been easily doable if you examine his ERA and Innings pitched over the decades.

The guy threw a no hitter (his 7th) at 45, and it wasn't a Gaylord Perry spit and polish junk gem, it was pure power pitching.
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Postby DK » Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:26 pm

Nolan Ryan in a nutshell:

7 no-hitters, no perfect games.

Very overrated because he's the flashy pitcher, and he pitched forever. His ERA+ for his career was 112. That is not in the top 100 of all time. In fact, it's not even really close.

He was a great strikeout pitcher - of this there is no doubt - but his propensity for allowing players on base keeps him from the top 10 or even 20 in my opinion.

Think of it this way:
Ryan's ERA is 3.19 when the league average was 3.57.
Clemens's ERA is 3.12 when the league average was 4.46.

Do all the K's really matter when they don't keep the runs off the board?
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Postby Yoda » Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:34 pm

DK wrote:Nolan Ryan in a nutshell:

7 no-hitters, no perfect games.

Very overrated because he's the flashy pitcher, and he pitched forever. His ERA+ for his career was 112. That is not in the top 100 of all time. In fact, it's not even really close.

He was a great strikeout pitcher - of this there is no doubt - but his propensity for allowing players on base keeps him from the top 10 or even 20 in my opinion.

Think of it this way:
Ryan's ERA is 3.19 when the league average was 3.57.
Clemens's ERA is 3.12 when the league average was 4.46.

Do all the K's really matter when they don't keep the runs off the board?


You are just going off ERA which I don't normally use to evaluate pitchers. He was absolutely dominant for a very long time. He may not have the flashy short term numbers like Koulfax but you won't find too many pitchers who sustained his career as well as Ryan. Clemens is the only other pitcher that is even close.
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Postby DK » Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:35 pm

Yoda wrote:You are just going off ERA which I don't normally use to evaluate pitchers. He was absolutely dominant for a very long time. He may not have the flashy short term numbers like Koulfax but you won't find too many pitchers who sustained his career as well as Ryan. Clemens is the only other pitcher that is even close.


You're using ERA incorrectly. ERA tells exactly about past performance; the name of the game is runs scored and the absence of runs scored. ERA is not a great predictor of future performance, this is true; but when you're talking about actual performance put forth on the field, ERA is one of the best stats to use, along with RSAA.

Ryan sustained his career at a level 12% above average. You're telling me you'd rather have a guy 12% above average for 27 years (about 20 full) than say, a guy like Randy Johnson, who's been 42% above average for 18 years (about 15 full)?

I'd rather have a pitcher who was great for 10 years than somewhat above average for 20.
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