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WHIP: The most important pitching category.

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Postby tomdoyle3 » Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:09 pm

Peavy is the perfect example of a guy who has had his era inflated by a few hits. (12 home runs) His whip is just 1.26, and it was like 1.19 before last night.
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Postby Zito is God » Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:10 pm

RugbyD wrote:if you had to pick just ONE stat, I agree that WHIP is probably the one i would pick. Like someone else mentioned, you'll get screwed on guys that like to give up the longball, but still maintain a solid WHIP (Radke comes to mind).

For overall evaluation, in order of importance I'll look at WHIP, ERA, K/9, K/BB, HR/9



This is the point I was trying to get across. I do not mean you do not look at any other stats. I look at K/9, K/BB, ERA, IP, GB/FB, and WHIP. I simply meant that I believe that A) If I had to choose one stat I would go with WHIP, and B) I think WHIP is a more important indicator of performance then any others.
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Postby Zito is God » Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:13 pm

garf112 wrote:
Zito is God wrote:The thing is, I agree that Ks are arguably the most solid stat because you are not giving the hitter even a chance to beat out a grounder or get a sac fly etc. However, there are many pitchers who simply are not K pitchers, yet do a solid job on the mound. This is where WHIP comes in. There are so many sinkerballer pitchers who just get infinite groundouts during their starts but have a low K ratio so they get passed by.


Doesn't this make gb/fb ratio the most important stat? Not WHIP

It actually could be debated that it is.


I think it is debatable, but you can have a very good ratio and still give up a ton of hits and runs being a sinkerballer. You don't HAVE to give up HRs to be a bad pitcher. GB/FB is a big reason I traded Vazques away (I am regretting it now because the guy I got for him...well, lets just say I REALLY needed a shortstop). Yet I will say again that WHIP means you aren't giving up the hits period, GB/FB could still have a high WHIP and is simply giving up a lot of grounders.
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Postby moochman » Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:18 pm

Overall I would agree that WHIP is the one indicator of pitching excellence. It demonstrates a pitchers control and talent. In other words his pitching ability. A pitcher can either be a high K guy, sinkerballer, or a nibbler but his ability to keep people off base is a good indicator of his command of his skill set.


I will take a high K rate in a young pitcher over his WHIP though. I feel that young pitchers are a little too erratic to be consistant, but Ks are usually there.
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Postby acsguitar » Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:19 pm

I like Whip and K's
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Postby garf112 » Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:20 pm

Zito is God wrote:
garf112 wrote:
Zito is God wrote:The thing is, I agree that Ks are arguably the most solid stat because you are not giving the hitter even a chance to beat out a grounder or get a sac fly etc. However, there are many pitchers who simply are not K pitchers, yet do a solid job on the mound. This is where WHIP comes in. There are so many sinkerballer pitchers who just get infinite groundouts during their starts but have a low K ratio so they get passed by.


Doesn't this make gb/fb ratio the most important stat? Not WHIP

It actually could be debated that it is.


I think it is debatable, but you can have a very good ratio and still give up a ton of hits and runs being a sinkerballer. You don't HAVE to give up HRs to be a bad pitcher. GB/FB is a big reason I traded Vazques away (I am regretting it now because the guy I got for him...well, lets just say I REALLY needed a shortstop). Yet I will say again that WHIP means you aren't giving up the hits period, GB/FB could still have a high WHIP and is simply giving up a lot of grounders.


Basically to be a successful pitcher you need to do three things:

1) Strike people out
2) Keep people from hitting the ball in the air
3) Limit your walks

In that order. If you can do all three, you are an elite pitcher. If you break pitchers into categories, the best strike guys out and have a high gb%.... There are about 8 categories and the worst are flyball pitchers that don't strike anybody out.

WHIP has too much luck involved in it. Any pitcher will allow balls to fall in for hits at about a 30% rate.

If you are unable to find these stats, you might be better off just going with WHIP, but knowing that it is a flawed statistic.
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Postby Pogotheostrich » Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:23 pm

Zito is God wrote:This is the point I was trying to get across. I do not mean you do not look at any other stats. I look at K/9, K/BB, ERA, IP, GB/FB, and WHIP. I simply meant that I believe that A) If I had to choose one stat I would go with WHIP, and B) I think WHIP is a more important indicator of performance then any others.


I think WHIP is the best indicator of performance but I don't think it is the best predictor of future performances. Does that make sense? To me WHIP is the best tool to examine how a pitcher did but K/BB is a much better tool for determining how a pitcher will pitch in the future.
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Postby J35J » Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:26 pm

garf112 wrote:
Zito is God wrote:
garf112 wrote:
Zito is God wrote:The thing is, I agree that Ks are arguably the most solid stat because you are not giving the hitter even a chance to beat out a grounder or get a sac fly etc. However, there are many pitchers who simply are not K pitchers, yet do a solid job on the mound. This is where WHIP comes in. There are so many sinkerballer pitchers who just get infinite groundouts during their starts but have a low K ratio so they get passed by.


Doesn't this make gb/fb ratio the most important stat? Not WHIP

It actually could be debated that it is.


I think it is debatable, but you can have a very good ratio and still give up a ton of hits and runs being a sinkerballer. You don't HAVE to give up HRs to be a bad pitcher. GB/FB is a big reason I traded Vazques away (I am regretting it now because the guy I got for him...well, lets just say I REALLY needed a shortstop). Yet I will say again that WHIP means you aren't giving up the hits period, GB/FB could still have a high WHIP and is simply giving up a lot of grounders.


Basically to be a successful pitcher you need to do three things:

1) Strike people out
2) Keep people from hitting the ball in the air
3) Limit your walks

In that order. If you can do all three, you are an elite pitcher. If you break pitchers into categories, the best strike guys out and have a high gb%.... There are about 8 categories and the worst are flyball pitchers that don't strike anybody out.


WHIP has too much luck involved in it. Any pitcher will allow balls to fall in for hits at about a 30% rate.

If you are unable to find these stats, you might be better off just going with WHIP, but knowing that it is a flawed statistic.



I would have to disagree with the bolded. From the 3 you mentioned, here is how I would make the order of importance......

1. Limit your walks
2. Limit your walks
3. Strike people out
4. Keep people from hitting the ball in the air

Jason
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Postby PlayingWithFire » Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:31 pm

WHIP is a good predicter but HR given up is really important. After all, R is what really counts in a ball game when it comes to winning or lossing. Classic Example, Boof Bonser against the A's.

7 innings 5 hits 4er no walks 3 HR given up.

Is that really a good performance? From the WHIP it would appear to be one.
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Postby PlayingWithFire » Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:34 pm

J35J wrote:
garf112 wrote:
Zito is God wrote:
garf112 wrote:
Zito is God wrote:The thing is, I agree that Ks are arguably the most solid stat because you are not giving the hitter even a chance to beat out a grounder or get a sac fly etc. However, there are many pitchers who simply are not K pitchers, yet do a solid job on the mound. This is where WHIP comes in. There are so many sinkerballer pitchers who just get infinite groundouts during their starts but have a low K ratio so they get passed by.


Doesn't this make gb/fb ratio the most important stat? Not WHIP

It actually could be debated that it is.


I think it is debatable, but you can have a very good ratio and still give up a ton of hits and runs being a sinkerballer. You don't HAVE to give up HRs to be a bad pitcher. GB/FB is a big reason I traded Vazques away (I am regretting it now because the guy I got for him...well, lets just say I REALLY needed a shortstop). Yet I will say again that WHIP means you aren't giving up the hits period, GB/FB could still have a high WHIP and is simply giving up a lot of grounders.


Basically to be a successful pitcher you need to do three things:

1) Strike people out
2) Keep people from hitting the ball in the air
3) Limit your walks

In that order. If you can do all three, you are an elite pitcher. If you break pitchers into categories, the best strike guys out and have a high gb%.... There are about 8 categories and the worst are flyball pitchers that don't strike anybody out.


WHIP has too much luck involved in it. Any pitcher will allow balls to fall in for hits at about a 30% rate.

If you are unable to find these stats, you might be better off just going with WHIP, but knowing that it is a flawed statistic.



I would have to disagree with the bolded. From the 3 you mentioned, here is how I would make the order of importance......

1. Limit your walks
2. Limit your walks
3. Strike people out
4. Keep people from hitting the ball in the air

Jason


is fb/gb ratio really that important? Jered Weaver is a fly ball pitcher and he's being successful.

really I think it's

1. Strike people out
2. Keep people from hitting the ball hard
3. Limit Walks(you can have success by nibbling and walk a few a game, see: Josh Johnson)
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