Jeter vs. Mantle - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2014 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to Baseball History

Jeter vs. Mantle

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Postby BronXBombers51 » Tue May 30, 2006 2:43 pm

Matthias wrote:
suppasonic wrote:Mantle: Top 10, top 20 baseball player of all time.

Jeter: Probably the 5th-10th best shortstop of all time.


I think what you mean is that Jeter is probably the 5th-10th best shortstop of HIS time and MAYBE the 50th-100th best shortstop of ALL time.


Well, I agree that Jeter is overrated in many ways, and that this article is absurd, but I'd love for you to name 50 all-time shorstops who are better than Derek Jeter.
25
BronXBombers51
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Mock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 11949
(Past Year: 54)
Joined: 8 Apr 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby noseeum » Tue May 30, 2006 7:27 pm

BronXBombers51 wrote:
Matthias wrote:
suppasonic wrote:Mantle: Top 10, top 20 baseball player of all time.

Jeter: Probably the 5th-10th best shortstop of all time.


I think what you mean is that Jeter is probably the 5th-10th best shortstop of HIS time and MAYBE the 50th-100th best shortstop of ALL time.


Well, I agree that Jeter is overrated in many ways, and that this article is absurd, but I'd love for you to name 50 all-time shorstops who are better than Derek Jeter.


Yeah, this one's ridiculous. Like I said in my first post, there are plenty of owners out there that would have loved to pencil in Jeter at SS for the past 10 years. 5th-10th best of his era is ridiculous. Put your list to paper for us if you're going to make that claim that there are that many better than him.
noseeum
Major League Manager
Major League Manager


Posts: 1697
Joined: 1 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby Tavish » Tue May 30, 2006 8:50 pm

noseeum wrote:
Matthias wrote:
suppasonic wrote:Mantle: Top 10, top 20 baseball player of all time.

Jeter: Probably the 5th-10th best shortstop of all time.


I think what you mean is that Jeter is probably the 5th-10th best shortstop of HIS time and MAYBE the 50th-100th best shortstop of ALL time.


Yeah, this one's ridiculous. Like I said in my first post, there are plenty of owners out there that would have loved to pencil in Jeter at SS for the past 10 years. 5th-10th best of his era is ridiculous. Put your list to paper for us if you're going to make that claim that there are that many better than him.


Its not completely ridiculous, 50th best All-Time is insane. But Jeter is playing in an era where the SS became a premier position. It could be argued that A-Rod, Larkin, Nomar, and Ripken were better in this era which would make Jeter 5th. Its where Jeter goes from here that will determine how he is judged in comparison to his peers.
Image

Bury me a Royal.
Tavish
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterWeb Supporter
Posts: 11068
(Past Year: 26)
Joined: 3 May 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby noseeum » Wed May 31, 2006 1:22 am

Tavish wrote:
noseeum wrote:
Matthias wrote:
suppasonic wrote:Mantle: Top 10, top 20 baseball player of all time.

Jeter: Probably the 5th-10th best shortstop of all time.


I think what you mean is that Jeter is probably the 5th-10th best shortstop of HIS time and MAYBE the 50th-100th best shortstop of ALL time.


Yeah, this one's ridiculous. Like I said in my first post, there are plenty of owners out there that would have loved to pencil in Jeter at SS for the past 10 years. 5th-10th best of his era is ridiculous. Put your list to paper for us if you're going to make that claim that there are that many better than him.


Its not completely ridiculous, 50th best All-Time is insane. But Jeter is playing in an era where the SS became a premier position. It could be argued that A-Rod, Larkin, Nomar, and Ripken were better in this era which would make Jeter 5th. Its where Jeter goes from here that will determine how he is judged in comparison to his peers.


You can't say Larkin and Nomar. Nomar had a couple of good years than tanked. Many thought he would be better, but it didn't turn out that way. You can argue Ripken, Arod and Tejada, and I'd say that's it.
noseeum
Major League Manager
Major League Manager


Posts: 1697
Joined: 1 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby WharfRat » Wed May 31, 2006 12:22 pm

I'll give you Nomah, but Larkin is Hall-caliber, and probably one of the greatest shortstops to play the game. You could certainly place him in the top-10 all-time. Offensively he was terrific, and his defense was solid as well. He actually gets compared to Jeter a lot. If Jeter retired today, I'd consider Larkin the better SS. Ultimately Jeter will surpass Larkin methinks, but it will be very close.

The big knock against Larkin is probably that he couldn't stay healthy, and it's probably why he's so underrated. Contrast that with Cal's games record. But when Larkin could stay on the field, he wasn't that far off from Ripken: his career Runs Created per 27 Outs is actually higher than Cal's, in about 100 fewer games at SS. (Jeter's is the highest of the three, but he hasn't hit his decline phase yet).

So this is all just a long way of saying that there is definitely a case for Larkin being better than Jeter, and if Jeter follows the normal decline trajectory, it will remain a close comparison. Like Tavish said, what Jete does from here will really help illuminate where he stands in history, and it likely won't be very far ahead of Larkin (if at all).
1 3 4 6 7 8 8 9 10 15 16 23 32 37 42 44 49 51

8.14.07: "I guess heaven needed a shortstop."
WharfRat
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
Cafeholic
Posts: 3056
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Walking my fish

Postby Tavish » Wed May 31, 2006 12:57 pm

noseeum wrote:You can't say Larkin and Nomar. Nomar had a couple of good years than tanked. Many thought he would be better, but it didn't turn out that way. You can argue Ripken, Arod and Tejada, and I'd say that's it.


Jeter vs Larkin when they were both around the 1500 game played mark (after last season for Jeter, after 1998 for Larkin)

<pre> G AB H 2B 3B HR RBI R SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS+
Jeter 1525 6167 1936 308 47 169 763 1159 215 57 0.314 0.386 0.461 121
Larkin 1546 5708 1713 305 61 156 718 955 315 57 0.300 0.375 0.457 124
</pre>

The numbers are very similar, Larkin wins SB and Jeter has the edge in BA. The counting stats would be even closer, but Jeter played on some of the best offensive teams in history which gave him a higher number of ABs/G (almost half an AB more per game over 1500 games makes a pretty big difference). Larkin was farther ahead of his league than Jeter has been. Larkin was also a much better defensive player than Jeter.

Larkin started to decline after this point, which is why I said how Jeter is judged depends on how he does from here on out. At this point it is very easy to argue Larkin was the better player on a lower profile team.
Image

Bury me a Royal.
Tavish
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterWeb Supporter
Posts: 11068
(Past Year: 26)
Joined: 3 May 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby noseeum » Wed May 31, 2006 4:25 pm

Tavish wrote:
noseeum wrote:You can't say Larkin and Nomar. Nomar had a couple of good years than tanked. Many thought he would be better, but it didn't turn out that way. You can argue Ripken, Arod and Tejada, and I'd say that's it.


Jeter vs Larkin when they were both around the 1500 game played mark (after last season for Jeter, after 1998 for Larkin)

<pre> G AB H 2B 3B HR RBI R SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS+
Jeter 1525 6167 1936 308 47 169 763 1159 215 57 0.314 0.386 0.461 121
Larkin 1546 5708 1713 305 61 156 718 955 315 57 0.300 0.375 0.457 124
</pre>

The numbers are very similar, Larkin wins SB and Jeter has the edge in BA. The counting stats would be even closer, but Jeter played on some of the best offensive teams in history which gave him a higher number of ABs/G (almost half an AB more per game over 1500 games makes a pretty big difference). Larkin was farther ahead of his league than Jeter has been. Larkin was also a much better defensive player than Jeter.

Larkin started to decline after this point, which is why I said how Jeter is judged depends on how he does from here on out. At this point it is very easy to argue Larkin was the better player on a lower profile team.


This is all true, but doing a straight comparison of overall career stats hides a major flaw of Larkin's: durability. He played 19 seasons and only had seven seasons with 140 or more games played. Sure, he was good when he was in there, but it took him 18 years to get the same stats that Jeter got in ten:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/larkiba01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/j/jeterde01.shtml

That's a huge gap that you can't ignore. He may have had the same ability, but he was out of the lineup way too often to be considered Jeter's equal.
noseeum
Major League Manager
Major League Manager


Posts: 1697
Joined: 1 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby Tavish » Wed May 31, 2006 5:18 pm

noseeum wrote:
Tavish wrote:
noseeum wrote:You can't say Larkin and Nomar. Nomar had a couple of good years than tanked. Many thought he would be better, but it didn't turn out that way. You can argue Ripken, Arod and Tejada, and I'd say that's it.


Jeter vs Larkin when they were both around the 1500 game played mark (after last season for Jeter, after 1998 for Larkin)

<pre> G AB H 2B 3B HR RBI R SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS+
Jeter 1525 6167 1936 308 47 169 763 1159 215 57 0.314 0.386 0.461 121
Larkin 1546 5708 1713 305 61 156 718 955 315 57 0.300 0.375 0.457 124
</pre>

The numbers are very similar, Larkin wins SB and Jeter has the edge in BA. The counting stats would be even closer, but Jeter played on some of the best offensive teams in history which gave him a higher number of ABs/G (almost half an AB more per game over 1500 games makes a pretty big difference). Larkin was farther ahead of his league than Jeter has been. Larkin was also a much better defensive player than Jeter.

Larkin started to decline after this point, which is why I said how Jeter is judged depends on how he does from here on out. At this point it is very easy to argue Larkin was the better player on a lower profile team.


This is all true, but doing a straight comparison of overall career stats hides a major flaw of Larkin's: durability. He played 19 seasons and only had seven seasons with 140 or more games played. Sure, he was good when he was in there, but it took him 18 years to get the same stats that Jeter got in ten:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/larkiba01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/j/jeterde01.shtml

That's a huge gap that you can't ignore. He may have had the same ability, but he was out of the lineup way too often to be considered Jeter's equal.


Those stats compare what Larkin accomplished in 12 seasons (one being his rookie call-up, one being a strike shortened season) compared with what Jeter did in 11 (one being his rookie call-up season). Jeter being in the lineup more doesn't make him better (or the equal) of someone who outperformed him when healthy.
Image

Bury me a Royal.
Tavish
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterWeb Supporter
Posts: 11068
(Past Year: 26)
Joined: 3 May 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby noseeum » Wed May 31, 2006 5:48 pm

Tavish wrote:[
Those stats compare what Larkin accomplished in 12 seasons (one being his rookie call-up, one being a strike shortened season) compared with what Jeter did in 11 (one being his rookie call-up season). Jeter being in the lineup more doesn't make him better (or the equal) of someone who outperformed him when healthy.


I took off one year for each to get rid of the rookie season. Where did you get 12 from? He played 19 seasons. Take off rookie and strike, and you get 17. 17 compared to 10.

Of course Jeter being in the lineup more makes him better. Do you think Prior is one of the best pitchers of the last 5 years? Sure, he's one of the most talented, but when you're talking about who's the better player, it's about what they did, not what they could have done if they weren't hurt.

Put another way, Jeter has 763 RBI. That's an average of about 75 RBI per season. Larkin has 960 RBI. That's an average of 56 per season. Runs? 115 vs. 78.

And BTW, in the '94 strike season, Larkin played 110 games. That's more than many of his other seasons, and I still discounted the entire year for you.

Durability is key in assessing a player's ranking. Larkin never finished higher than fifth in runs in a given season. Jeter's done that 7 times, and two other times he was sixth. I could go on and on here.

Give in! Admit defeat!! ;-)
Last edited by noseeum on Wed May 31, 2006 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
noseeum
Major League Manager
Major League Manager


Posts: 1697
Joined: 1 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby Tavish » Wed May 31, 2006 6:47 pm

noseeum wrote:
Tavish wrote:Those stats compare what Larkin accomplished in 12 seasons (one being his rookie call-up, one being a strike shortened season) compared with what Jeter did in 11 (one being his rookie call-up season). Jeter being in the lineup more doesn't make him better (or the equal) of someone who outperformed him when healthy.


I took off one year for each to get rid of the rookie season. Where did you get 12 from? He played 19 seasons. Take off rookie and strike, and you get 17. 17 compared to 10.


The stats I posted were Larkin's first 1500+ games (ie his first 12 seasons with the rookie call-up and strike season) matched against Jeter's first 1500+ games (ie his first 11 seasons with rookie callup). I 100% agree with you that Jeter plays in a greater percentage of his team games.

Of course Jeter being in the lineup more makes him better. Do you think Prior is one of the best pitchers of the last 5 years? Sure, he's one of the most talented, but when you're talking about who's the better player, it's about what they did, not what they could have done if they weren't hurt.

Put another way, Jeter has 763 RBI. That's an average of about 75 RBI per season. Larkin has 718 RBI. That's an average of 42 per season. Runs? 115 vs. 56.


Getting more ABs per game doesn't make Jeter better. It gives him more oppurtunity to accumulate counting stats. ABs per game (like RBI and R) is determined almost completely by where you bat in the order, the team you are on and the offensive rate of the era you play in. Jeter had a leg up in the two latter departments. You completely misunderstood the point.

Per game Jeter and Larkin were almost identical offensively. Rated out over 162 games Jeter would get you 1 more HR, 1 less triple, and steal 10 less bases (while getting caught the same number of times). All this ignores the difference in era which is another slight bonus in Larkin's favor (as evidenced by the 124 to 121 OPS+ advantage for Larkin), plus Larkin was the superior defensive player at a premium defensive position.

Durability is key in assessing a player's ranking. Larkin never finished higher than fifth in runs in a given season. Jeter's done that 7 times, and two other times he was sixth. I could go on and on here.


Durability is a factor, one that Jeter wins. Production is a much larger factor and Jeter is on par or slightly below Larkin in that regard. Close enough that the comparison between the two is very valid.
Image

Bury me a Royal.
Tavish
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterWeb Supporter
Posts: 11068
(Past Year: 26)
Joined: 3 May 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

PreviousNext

Return to Baseball History

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Today's Games
Tuesday, Sep. 2
(All times are EST, weather icons show forecast for game time)

Cincinnati at Baltimore
(7:05 pm)
Detroit at Cleveland
(7:05 pm)
Boston at NY Yankees
(7:05 pm)
Philadelphia at Atlanta
(7:10 pm)
NY Mets at Miami
(7:10 pm)
indoors
Toronto at Tampa Bay
(7:10 pm)
indoors
Milwaukee at Chi Cubs
(8:05 pm)
Chi White Sox at Minnesota
(8:10 pm)
Texas at Kansas City
(8:10 pm)
LA Angels at Houston
(8:10 pm)
Pittsburgh at St. Louis
(8:15 pm)
San Francisco at Colorado
(8:40 pm)
Seattle at Oakland
(10:05 pm)
Washington at LA Dodgers
(10:10 pm)
Arizona at San Diego
(10:10 pm)

  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact