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Postby da1chipo » Tue May 23, 2006 6:29 pm

broomulack wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:
nuggets wrote:
Fact is, most Yankee fans don't know what the hell they're talking about, and it's why I can't stand most Yankee fans.


Amen to that! As a lifelong Met fan living in NY, there is no one more arrogant and at the same time more clueless than most young Yankee fans. I won't lump every Yankee fan into the equation. The fans who have grown up in the 90s with the championship teams are spoiled and think they deserve a World Series title every single year, and if they don't win it, it has to be everything else's fault.

Yankee fans have also, in many cases, been very hostile towards incoming superstars - Clemens wasn't loved because he was a former Red Sox player, and because the beloved Wells was traded for him, witness ARod now. All Arod does is put up monster numbers, and the fact that he doesn't always come through sticks out a lot more with him than it does with other players because of his all-world status. He gets his share of "clutch" hits, they just haven't been the last hit of hte game or the ones that won the game in the Yanks last at-bat like some of Jeter's have been.

This coming from a guy who owns ARod in three leagues this year and is frustrated as all hell.


I'm just going to accept this for the purpose of this argument:

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. When a player gets an eventual GW hit in an early inning, he got it with no pressure on him. If someone does it in the late innings, there is a ton more pressure on the guy, because at that point, the options are get the hit or lose.

That's the problem I see with the stats for GW/game-tying hits, or AVG w/ runners wherever, because they don't take into account the pressure of the particular situation. Close/late is a better statistic, but it still isn't perfect, because being down is much different pressure-wise from being tied or up a run.
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Postby broomulack » Tue May 23, 2006 6:33 pm

da1chipo wrote:
broomulack wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:
nuggets wrote:
Fact is, most Yankee fans don't know what the hell they're talking about, and it's why I can't stand most Yankee fans.


Amen to that! As a lifelong Met fan living in NY, there is no one more arrogant and at the same time more clueless than most young Yankee fans. I won't lump every Yankee fan into the equation. The fans who have grown up in the 90s with the championship teams are spoiled and think they deserve a World Series title every single year, and if they don't win it, it has to be everything else's fault.

Yankee fans have also, in many cases, been very hostile towards incoming superstars - Clemens wasn't loved because he was a former Red Sox player, and because the beloved Wells was traded for him, witness ARod now. All Arod does is put up monster numbers, and the fact that he doesn't always come through sticks out a lot more with him than it does with other players because of his all-world status. He gets his share of "clutch" hits, they just haven't been the last hit of hte game or the ones that won the game in the Yanks last at-bat like some of Jeter's have been.

This coming from a guy who owns ARod in three leagues this year and is frustrated as all hell.


I'm just going to accept this for the purpose of this argument:

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. When a player gets an eventual GW hit in an early inning, he got it with no pressure on him. If someone does it in the late innings, there is a ton more pressure on the guy, because at that point, the options are get the hit or lose. That's the problem I see with the stats for GW/game-tying hits, or AVG w/ runners wherever, because they don't take into account the pressure of the particular situation. Close/late is a better statistic, but it still isn't perfect, because being down is much different pressure-wise from being tied or up a run.


I agree with you in principal, however that wasn't exactly my point. I could see how you took it that way, though.

What I actually meant was that ARod will get a "clutch" hit in the 7th inning, maybe the 6th - when the team is losing, I've seen him be a big part of a comebacks as the guy who topped it off with a HR to give the Yanks the lead - but the fact is that people are going to notice the last play of the game or the team's last at bat a lot more frequently than they will a hit that came a little earlier.

I agree 100% that it's absurd to call a guy who breaks a 0-0 tie with a solo homer in the 2nd inning "clutch" - that's not what clutch is about. But clutch also isn't ONLY about the last play.
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Postby da1chipo » Tue May 23, 2006 6:38 pm

broomulack wrote:I agree with you in principal, however that wasn't exactly point. I could see how you took it that way, though.

What i actually meant was that ARod will get a "clutch" hit in the 7th inning, maybe the 6th - when the team is losing, I've seen him be a big part of a comebacks as the guy who topped it off with a HR to give the Yanks the lead - but the fact is that people are going to notice the last play of the game or the last at bat of a team's inning a lot more frequently than they will a hit that came a little earlier.

I agree 100% that it's absurd to call a guy who breaks a 0-0 tie with a solo homer in the 2nd inning "clutch" - that's not what clutch is about. But clutch also isn't ONLY about the last play.


But if he's just simply topping it off, then he's not really doing anything "clutch", is he? Sure getting a lead is very important, but there is significantly less pressure then. If he's doing it when they're still down, fine, good for him.
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Postby broomulack » Tue May 23, 2006 6:47 pm

da1chipo wrote:
broomulack wrote:I agree with you in principal, however that wasn't exactly point. I could see how you took it that way, though.

What i actually meant was that ARod will get a "clutch" hit in the 7th inning, maybe the 6th - when the team is losing, I've seen him be a big part of a comebacks as the guy who topped it off with a HR to give the Yanks the lead - but the fact is that people are going to notice the last play of the game or the last at bat of a team's inning a lot more frequently than they will a hit that came a little earlier.

I agree 100% that it's absurd to call a guy who breaks a 0-0 tie with a solo homer in the 2nd inning "clutch" - that's not what clutch is about. But clutch also isn't ONLY about the last play.


I think you may be taking me far too literally - I'm not referring only to when the game is tied! There is no set definition of what clutch is, but I doubt very much that many would agree that it is solely 9th inning heroics - sure, that's clutch, but so is a game tying homerun, a 2-run double when down a run, etc.

I'm not here to say ARod IS clutch, I've seen too many double plays when it counts, but to say he ISN'T clutch is a bit of a stretch too. A guy who puts up numbers like he does can't do it all in garbage time.
But if he's just simply topping it off, then he's not really doing anything "clutch", is he? Sure getting a lead is very important, but there is significantly less pressure then. If he's doing it when they're still down, fine, good for him.
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Postby BronXBombers51 » Tue May 23, 2006 10:28 pm

Where's the A-Rod haters tonight? :-?

A-Rod blasts a 3-run homer off Wakefield in the 7th inning. The Yankees win the game 7-5. Seems to me, A-Rod's homerun won tonight's game vs. Boston.


By the way, Oritz popped up with runners on 1st and 2nd the next inning, with an opportunity to tie. Where was the 'clutch' tonight? ;-7
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Postby da1chipo » Tue May 23, 2006 10:33 pm

BronXBombers51 wrote:A-Rod blasts a 3-run homer off Wakefield in the 7th inning. The Yankees win the game 7-5. Seems to me, A-Rod's homerun won tonight's game vs. Boston.


Not quite. 3 run lead at the time. It ended being a key hit, but had he not hit it, anything could have happened. You could say that Jeter won the game with his 2-run single just as easily.

Not that I don't appreciate the blast...

Ortiz can kiss my...you know.... ;-D
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Postby BronXBombers51 » Tue May 23, 2006 10:37 pm

da1chipo wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:A-Rod blasts a 3-run homer off Wakefield in the 7th inning. The Yankees win the game 7-5. Seems to me, A-Rod's homerun won tonight's game vs. Boston.


Not quite. 3 run lead at the time. It ended being a key hit, but had he not hit it, anything could have happened. You could say that Jeter won the game with his 2-run single just as easily.

Not that I don't appreciate the blast...

Ortiz can kiss my...you know.... ;-D


Had he not hit it, the Yankees don't have enough runs to win. A-Rod got the big hit of tonight's game. Not exactly 'padding' his stat totals in blowout games vs. the Tampa Bay Devil Rays, as so many of these haters like to say...

A-Rod wins player of the game and the A-Rod bashers are nowhere to be found. :-) Typical.
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Postby da1chipo » Tue May 23, 2006 10:40 pm

BronXBombers51 wrote:
da1chipo wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:A-Rod blasts a 3-run homer off Wakefield in the 7th inning. The Yankees win the game 7-5. Seems to me, A-Rod's homerun won tonight's game vs. Boston.


Not quite. 3 run lead at the time. It ended being a key hit, but had he not hit it, anything could have happened. You could say that Jeter won the game with his 2-run single just as easily.

Not that I don't appreciate the blast...

Ortiz can kiss my...you know.... ;-D


Had he not hit it, the Yankees don't have enough runs to win. A-Rod got the big hit of tonight's game. Not exactly 'padding' his stat totals in blowout games vs. the Tampa Bay Devil Rays, as so many of these haters like to say...

A-Rod wins player of the game and the A-Rod bashers are nowhere to be found. :-) Typical.


My point is, had he not hit it, we have no idea what would have happened. You can't say that the game would have gone on the way iit did. For all we know, the next inning the Yanks score 5 runs, and the Sawx are shut out the rest of the game.

I won't argue that he's not the player of the game, and that his hit wasn't key to the win, but using this example for the "clutch" argument just doesn't work because at the time, he had a lead. The HR didn't even fall into the close/late category that seems to be all over the place.
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Postby HOOTIE » Tue May 23, 2006 10:46 pm

The Kavorka wrote:Why is it that every Yankee fan I know would take Jeter of Arod in a heartbeat?


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Postby BronXBombers51 » Tue May 23, 2006 10:46 pm

da1chipo wrote:My point is, had he not hit it, we have no idea what would have happened. You can't say that the game would have gone on the way iit did. For all we know, the next inning the Yanks score 5 runs, and the Sawx are shut out the rest of the game.

I won't argue that he's not the player of the game, and that his hit wasn't key to the win, but using this example for the "clutch" argument just doesn't work because at the time, he had a lead. The HR didn't even fall into the close/late category that seems to be all over the place.


The clutch thing with Ortiz was sarcasm. There's no such thing as clutch.

My point is, A-Rod played a vital role in beating the Red Sox tonight. His homerun allowed the Yankees to win the game. These haters say that A-Rod pads his MVP numbers by hitting a bunch of homeruns in blowout games vs. Tampa Bay and never gets any homeruns that mean anything.

Tonight's meant something. So have many of his other homeruns. :-) ;-)
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