Alfonso Soriano revisisted (Merged) - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2014 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Alfonso Soriano revisisted (Merged)

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Postby cordscords » Mon May 22, 2006 9:36 am

BTW- Why am I taking so much heat on this? In my second post I already took the first step in admitting that at the end of the season I could very well be wrong on Soriano.

And if you look in the first thread there were guys projecting Soriano to hit .240 with 20 HR.

For his final line I had him at .260, 28 HR, and 30 SB with low RBI and R totals.

I still think he's a good fantasy option at 2B. I don't think he will be out of baseball in 3 years. But I don't think he should have been drafted ahead of Utley, or in the 2nd round.
cordscords
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
Mock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 4343
(Past Year: 20)
Joined: 23 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby cordscords » Mon May 22, 2006 1:15 pm

GSes wrote:and they say "he is playing over his head and has a lot ot proove"

does any1 see the comedy in those statements?


Sorry if I have seen Soriano's BA drop by .10, .10, .12 the last 3 years. And have seen the effects of a player switching leagues (Beltran) and moving to a pitchers park (Giles and Wilkerson) hurt their #'s a little bit.

It's not that crazy.
cordscords
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
Mock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 4343
(Past Year: 20)
Joined: 23 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby NikkiSixx » Mon May 22, 2006 3:54 pm

cordscords wrote:
Zito is God wrote:
Did losing Soriano hurt the Yankees? Did he help the Rangers out at all? Is he helping the Nats out right now?


Umm, yes, yes, and yes. You are digging a very deep hole right now that I doubt you will be able to get out of without a good ration of ridicule.

The only reason that the Yankees statistically do not show any disadvantage in losing Soriano is because they got ARod in return, kinda kills your arguement there.

Did he help the Rangers? Well, his ridiculous stats kinda speak for that.

Without Soriano, the Nats would be the worst team in the majors (they are close anyways). Soriano IS the Nats production, Johnson, Soriano and Vidro are the only players doing ANYTHING!

Just stop while you're in last place and down, but not out, yet.


Let me ask you something. Whenever a team drafts a player, calls a player up/sends down, swaps players in batting order, signs a FA, and makes a trade, the point of doing it is to make their team better. It may be a short term move to improve their team, or a long term move to improve their team. But the object of doing so is to get better.

The Yankees traded away Soriano and got A-Rod to get better. They signed Sheff as a FA that year to get better. They traded for Kevin Brown to get better. They signed Tom Gordon and traded for Javier Vazquez to get better.

The bottom line is the Yankees signed a whole bunch of productive players. A-Rod being the guy who was supposed to have the biggest impact, push the Yankees over the top, and win a WS.

They finish 101-61, just like they did in 2003. A-Rod earns the name A-Choke.

As for Soriano helping out the Rangers in 2004, he was 8th on the team in OBP amongst players with at least 280 AB. The Rangers were already an offensive powerhouse, so the only thing he really helped the Rangers out with is SB.

And if he makes bad teams better, why do the Nationals have a worse record at this point in the season than they did last year? I don't care about how other players are performing, but did the Nats really have a big roster shakeup? A few players are gone, but are they really going to miss Vinny Castilla and Christian Guzman? The same core of guys that put together a good year last year are still there, plus Soriano, and they are doing worse at this point in the season.

Have I dug my way out yet?


I said I wasnt going to argue Soriano anymore, but...I lied.



The Nationals players arent playing nearly as well, they COULD get hot and start winning, but I think everyone knows it was luck. Not to mention they have played about twice as many games on the road as they have at home (Soriano still has more HR's at home, in an extreme pitchers park).


Regardless of his OBP, he was still one of the biggest run producers in that lineup (batting 5th most of the year he still scored more than 100 runs). If you put up those numbers, you are going to help any team out, you are being completely ignorant saying he hasnt helped teams out.

Soriano is helping the team out a bunch, look at his numbers! Do teams do worse with those type of numbers this early on in the year?


You are seriously blaming the Nationals lack of wins on a guy who has been a top 5 hitter to this point?


By the way, I COMPLETELY agree with everything you have said thus far in this post Zito Is God.
NikkiSixx
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
Response TeamPick 3 Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 2583
(Past Year: 429)
Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: 1st place!

Postby Yoda » Mon May 22, 2006 4:07 pm

I did not participate in preseason debates about Soriano's 2005 predictions. In fact, I avoided him in two leagues I am in. There were just too many variables and I did not know how he would respond to his new environment, switching leagues, potential position change, etc.

It's still early but Soriano is getting it done again. I honestly do not know how he does it but despite everyone's hatred for him, the guy simply produces. Whether he does it for the remainder of the season is another story but I can say with certainty that I am absolutely shocked that he is producing at this level.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." ~George Carlin
Yoda
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy ExpertMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 21344
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: 15th green...

Postby cordscords » Mon May 22, 2006 4:34 pm

I have spent too much time talking about this guy.

I'll wait for Alfonso Soriano Revisited II to be created next month for me to bring something up again.
cordscords
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
Mock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 4343
(Past Year: 20)
Joined: 23 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby Zito is God » Mon May 22, 2006 5:44 pm

cordscords wrote:
Zito is God wrote:
Did losing Soriano hurt the Yankees? Did he help the Rangers out at all? Is he helping the Nats out right now?


Umm, yes, yes, and yes. You are digging a very deep hole right now that I doubt you will be able to get out of without a good ration of ridicule.

The only reason that the Yankees statistically do not show any disadvantage in losing Soriano is because they got ARod in return, kinda kills your arguement there.

Did he help the Rangers? Well, his ridiculous stats kinda speak for that.

Without Soriano, the Nats would be the worst team in the majors (they are close anyways). Soriano IS the Nats production, Johnson, Soriano and Vidro are the only players doing ANYTHING!

Just stop while you're in last place and down, but not out, yet.


Let me ask you something. Whenever a team drafts a player, calls a player up/sends down, swaps players in batting order, signs a FA, and makes a trade, the point of doing it is to make their team better. It may be a short term move to improve their team, or a long term move to improve their team. But the object of doing so is to get better.

The Yankees traded away Soriano and got A-Rod to get better. They signed Sheff as a FA that year to get better. They traded for Kevin Brown to get better. They signed Tom Gordon and traded for Javier Vazquez to get better.

The bottom line is the Yankees signed a whole bunch of productive players. A-Rod being the guy who was supposed to have the biggest impact, push the Yankees over the top, and win a WS.

They finish 101-61, just like they did in 2003. A-Rod earns the name A-Choke.

As for Soriano helping out the Rangers in 2004, he was 8th on the team in OBP amongst players with at least 280 AB. The Rangers were already an offensive powerhouse, so the only thing he really helped the Rangers out with is SB.

And if he makes bad teams better, why do the Nationals have a worse record at this point in the season than they did last year? I don't care about how other players are performing, but did the Nats really have a big roster shakeup? A few players are gone, but are they really going to miss Vinny Castilla and Christian Guzman? The same core of guys that put together a good year last year are still there, plus Soriano, and they are doing worse at this point in the season.

Have I dug my way out yet?


Seriously, you are ignorant, and deep down I believe you know you dug a hole on the wrong side of the fence here.

Ok, with the Ynakees scenariop, you proved my point even durther. yes, they traded Soriano to get A-Rod. Nop one in the world of baseball would argue that Soriano is the better player, he is worse, that does not mean he is not good, few players compare to A-Rod, in fact, only 1 does. In other words, Statistically they were the same with a better player then Soriano, I hope by now you understand you proved me right yourself here.

I couldn't care less if the Rangers didn't "need" his HR. The fact is, he put up those numbers. You say his steals were the only valuable stat, but it seems that those HRs and RBIs kinda helped too (common sense factor: Less RBIs = Less Wins for the team). I don't care that the GM didn't "need" Soriano's stats, thats not the player's fault, he came into a new enviorment and his first year absolutely dominated in every category...same as always.

The Nats scenario really burns me. I don't understand how even a casual baseball fran cannot read into the situation. 1. Soriano is doing everything for the team and contributing in every single category. 2. Other players are absolutely horrid and 1 player does not carry a tea, ever. By your evaluation, a player is ranked by his teammate's performance and persinal stats are meaningless. 3. Livan heranandez was an ace last year, hes barely putting up #5 numbers this year, Patterson is hurt, Cordero is blowing saves left and right: There's your answer as to why the team is worse then last year, how this has anything to do with Soriano I have no idea.

In conclusion, unless you believe ARod is worse then Soriano, believe that a player's ability should not be counted if the team already had "enough" of that category (in this case, Soriano's HRs and RBIs), and believe that Soriano is a bad player for not throwing gems from the mount and shutting down teams in the ninth inning with his killer circle change, you are wrong. Now your hole is finished.
Image

Sean Tracey has my apologies, we all know Ozzie Guillen is an idiot. I'm rooting for you!
Zito is God
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
Cafe WriterPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 4169
Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Secretly advising Cashman.

Postby The Loveable Losers » Mon May 22, 2006 5:51 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:I'm right here. And I still stand by what I said at the start. Soriano has still just played 15 of his games in RFK, where he's hitting almost 30 points worse than on the road. Right now his HR/OF rate is far, far above his lifetime rate. Notice that his overall extra base hits is right in line with his lifetime averages. His doubles are way down. As the season progresses more of those OF that he's hitting will become flyouts and doubles.

If you recall, most of us saw his value dropping not because of huge changes in HRs (where most of us saw high 20s) and SBs, but because of BA, R and RBIs.

On the road, the Nats average 4.67 runs per game.
At home they are averaging 3.5 runs per game.

Of the 119 games the Nats have left, 66 of them are at home.
Soriano's numbers will trend down. I don't have any doubt about that. In the end, his R and RBI will be about what I predicted, his BA will be about what I predicted, and he'll rank below the top 50 among all players in 5x5.


I'll second all of this. I was one of the detractors pre-season for exactly the reasons mentioned and I still feel that my opinion was right. I also never viewed Soriano as 'junk'...I don't think anyone out there really did. We just had realistic expectations of what type of production to expect from a Soriano with 81 games in RFK.
The Loveable Losers
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterWeb Supporter
Posts: 7290
Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Cubs Win!!! Cubs Win!!!

Postby NikkiSixx » Mon May 22, 2006 5:56 pm

Zito is God wrote:
cordscords wrote:
Zito is God wrote:
Did losing Soriano hurt the Yankees? Did he help the Rangers out at all? Is he helping the Nats out right now?


Umm, yes, yes, and yes. You are digging a very deep hole right now that I doubt you will be able to get out of without a good ration of ridicule.

The only reason that the Yankees statistically do not show any disadvantage in losing Soriano is because they got ARod in return, kinda kills your arguement there.

Did he help the Rangers? Well, his ridiculous stats kinda speak for that.

Without Soriano, the Nats would be the worst team in the majors (they are close anyways). Soriano IS the Nats production, Johnson, Soriano and Vidro are the only players doing ANYTHING!

Just stop while you're in last place and down, but not out, yet.


Let me ask you something. Whenever a team drafts a player, calls a player up/sends down, swaps players in batting order, signs a FA, and makes a trade, the point of doing it is to make their team better. It may be a short term move to improve their team, or a long term move to improve their team. But the object of doing so is to get better.

The Yankees traded away Soriano and got A-Rod to get better. They signed Sheff as a FA that year to get better. They traded for Kevin Brown to get better. They signed Tom Gordon and traded for Javier Vazquez to get better.

The bottom line is the Yankees signed a whole bunch of productive players. A-Rod being the guy who was supposed to have the biggest impact, push the Yankees over the top, and win a WS.

They finish 101-61, just like they did in 2003. A-Rod earns the name A-Choke.

As for Soriano helping out the Rangers in 2004, he was 8th on the team in OBP amongst players with at least 280 AB. The Rangers were already an offensive powerhouse, so the only thing he really helped the Rangers out with is SB.

And if he makes bad teams better, why do the Nationals have a worse record at this point in the season than they did last year? I don't care about how other players are performing, but did the Nats really have a big roster shakeup? A few players are gone, but are they really going to miss Vinny Castilla and Christian Guzman? The same core of guys that put together a good year last year are still there, plus Soriano, and they are doing worse at this point in the season.

Have I dug my way out yet?


Seriously, you are ignorant, and deep down I believe you know you dug a hole on the wrong side of the fence here.

Ok, with the Ynakees scenariop, you proved my point even durther. yes, they traded Soriano to get A-Rod. Nop one in the world of baseball would argue that Soriano is the better player, he is worse, that does not mean he is not good, few players compare to A-Rod, in fact, only 1 does. In other words, Statistically they were the same with a better player then Soriano, I hope by now you understand you proved me right yourself here.

I couldn't care less if the Rangers didn't "need" his HR. The fact is, he put up those numbers. You say his steals were the only valuable stat, but it seems that those HRs and RBIs kinda helped too (common sense factor: Less RBIs = Less Wins for the team). I don't care that the GM didn't "need" Soriano's stats, thats not the player's fault, he came into a new enviorment and his first year absolutely dominated in every category...same as always.

The Nats scenario really burns me. I don't understand how even a casual baseball fran cannot read into the situation. 1. Soriano is doing everything for the team and contributing in every single category. 2. Other players are absolutely horrid and 1 player does not carry a tea, ever. By your evaluation, a player is ranked by his teammate's performance and persinal stats are meaningless. 3. Livan heranandez was an ace last year, hes barely putting up #5 numbers this year, Patterson is hurt, Cordero is blowing saves left and right: There's your answer as to why the team is worse then last year, how this has anything to do with Soriano I have no idea.

In conclusion, unless you believe ARod is worse then Soriano, believe that a player's ability should not be counted if the team already had "enough" of that category (in this case, Soriano's HRs and RBIs), and believe that Soriano is a bad player for not throwing gems from the mount and shutting down teams in the ninth inning with his killer circle change, you are wrong. Now your hole is finished.



Well said. Patterson being injured is hurting them, and Livan Hernandez and Cordero are not playing anything like they were last year.
NikkiSixx
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
Response TeamPick 3 Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 2583
(Past Year: 429)
Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: 1st place!

Postby NikkiSixx » Mon May 22, 2006 6:01 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:I'm right here. And I still stand by what I said at the start. Soriano has still just played 15 of his games in RFK, where he's hitting almost 30 points worse than on the road. Right now his HR/OF rate is far, far above his lifetime rate. Notice that his overall extra base hits is right in line with his lifetime averages. His doubles are way down. As the season progresses more of those OF that he's hitting will become flyouts and doubles.

If you recall, most of us saw his value dropping not because of huge changes in HRs (where most of us saw high 20s) and SBs, but because of BA, R and RBIs.

On the road, the Nats average 4.67 runs per game.
At home they are averaging 3.5 runs per game.

Of the 119 games the Nats have left, 66 of them are at home.
Soriano's numbers will trend down. I don't have any doubt about that. In the end, his R and RBI will be about what I predicted, his BA will be about what I predicted, and he'll rank below the top 50 among all players in 5x5.


If you wouldnt mind, I would like to see what you predicted for Soriano.

By the way, I dont believe you mentioned this, but he has hit more HR"s at home in way less games at RFK, so the power is there for sure.


I have read some of your posts, and you seem to back up what you are talking about with facts as you did here (although I disagree with you), so if you happen to click back on this topic and respond to me, it should be interesting what you have to say, because Soriano is as good right now as he has ever been.
NikkiSixx
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
Response TeamPick 3 Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 2583
(Past Year: 429)
Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: 1st place!

Postby NikkiSixx » Mon May 22, 2006 9:14 pm

2 more walks for Soriano, thats 6 walks in the last 3 games for him.
NikkiSixx
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
Response TeamPick 3 Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 2583
(Past Year: 429)
Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: 1st place!

PreviousNext

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Today's Games
Wednesday, Aug. 20
(All times are EST, weather icons show forecast for game time)

Texas at Miami
(12:40 pm)
indoors
Seattle at Philadelphia
(1:05 pm)
Toronto at Milwaukee
(2:10 pm)
NY Mets at Oakland
(3:35 pm)
Houston at NY Yankees
(7:05 pm)
Atlanta at Pittsburgh
(7:05 pm)
Arizona at Washington
(7:05 pm)
Detroit at Tampa Bay
(7:10 pm)
indoors
LA Angels at Boston
(7:10 pm)
Cincinnati at St. Louis
(7:15 pm)
San Francisco at Chi Cubs
(8:05 pm)
Baltimore at Chi White Sox
(8:10 pm)
Cleveland at Minnesota
(8:10 pm)
Kansas City at Colorado
(8:40 pm)
San Diego at LA Dodgers
(10:10 pm)

  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact