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Alfonso Soriano revisisted (Merged)

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Postby cordscords » Sun May 21, 2006 10:12 pm

[quote="NikkiSixx"
And yes, I know that the Astos have a bad offense, but a GOOD player like Soriano can help turn a bad offense around, deal with it.[/quote]

So why do the Nationals have a worse record at this point in the season than they did last year?

"But you said that he would help the Astros offense!"

At some point during the season we were 15 games under .500. We needed some type of boost to help us out in any way, shape, or form. I know his power and speed are his 2 biggest assets, and the Astros sure as hell needed something. At that point something clearly needed to be done, so acquiring him to hopefully spark the offense seemed like a good idea.

Over the course of a season, the errors and OBP make him nothing special outside of his power and speed.
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Postby NikkiSixx » Sun May 21, 2006 10:36 pm

cordscords wrote:[quote="NikkiSixx"
And yes, I know that the Astos have a bad offense, but a GOOD player like Soriano can help turn a bad offense around, deal with it.


So why do the Nationals have a worse record at this point in the season than they did last year?

"But you said that he would help the Astros offense!"

At some point during the season we were 15 games under .500. We needed some type of boost to help us out in any way, shape, or form. I know his power and speed are his 2 biggest assets, and the Astros sure as hell needed something. At that point something clearly needed to be done, so acquiring him to hopefully spark the offense seemed like a good idea.

Over the course of a season, the errors and OBP make him nothing special outside of his power and speed.[/quote]


Well, the talks for Soriano going to Houston were before the 2005 season started...
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Postby NikkiSixx » Sun May 21, 2006 10:41 pm

You arent actually going to blame Washingtons lack of production on Soriano are you? Him, Vidro, and Nick Johnson have been the ONLY Washington Nationals offense. They got off to a hot start last year, they cooled down, you are being ridiculous for even bringing that up.

This is how you sound to me...

"The Angels are sucking...what the hell Vlad?

The Marlins have a bad record...Miguel Cabrera? why arent you making this team win?


Pittsburgh is bad...Jason Bay? whats the matter with you?"



The Nationals are not a good team and everyone knows it. They would be worse without Soriano...and everyone knows it..
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Postby NikkiSixx » Sun May 21, 2006 10:42 pm

Look, I am not going to argue what is obvious about Soriano, the point is he is still worth a 1st round draft pick and whoever got him in rounds 2 or 3 stole him from the draft and basically had 2 first rounders.




I still think he is a good real life player. cords, you can think whatever you would like. If you want to nitpick at the little things that dont make him great, go right ahead, the good outweighs the bad and thats why Soriano is such a commodity in the baseball.
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Postby cordscords » Sun May 21, 2006 10:57 pm

NikkiSixx wrote:You arent actually going to blame Washingtons lack of production on Soriano are you? Him, Vidro, and Nick Johnson have been the ONLY Washington Nationals offense. They got off to a hot start last year, they cooled down, you are being ridiculous for even bringing that up.

This is how you sound to me...

"The Angels are sucking...what the hell Vlad?

The Marlins have a bad record...Miguel Cabrera? why arent you making this team win?


Pittsburgh is bad...Jason Bay? whats the matter with you?"



The Nationals are not a good team and everyone knows it. They would be worse without Soriano...and everyone knows it..


Didnt you say he made bad teams better?

Vlad helped the Angels out when he first came there. Cabrera had his whole team taken away from him. And Jason Bay has always been around a bad team.

Did losing Soriano hurt the Yankees? Did he help the Rangers out at all? Is he helping the Nats out right now?

Jeez. Is everything ok with you upstairs?
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Postby Zito is God » Mon May 22, 2006 12:00 am

Pedantic wrote:
NikkiSixx wrote:
cordscords wrote:
NikkiSixx wrote:Great fantasy player, good real life player


Fantasy- Yup
Real Life- Nope



He is a very good hitter with elite speed and a strong arm. I think that qualifies him as a good player.


Joey Gathright has "elite" speed. A strong arm? Maybe, but how much of a player's value does this really determine? Methinks not much. As for his hitting, his power blinds people to the fact that his lack of plate discipline severely limits his production at the plate. Soriano may be a boon to fantasy owners, but he is one of the most overrated players in real life, especially considering his salary.


Joey Gathwright shouldn't be in the same sentence as Soriano. Hes not evwen hitting .200 last time I checked, his power is so low he can't hit anything but a single, his has a very very weak arm. In other words, two different players.

I think arm strength matters to an extent, Furcal's arm strength gets touted about every year. Speed alone does not say much (like with Gathwright), but combined with the power and intimidation that Soriano brings its quite good. I don't see an arguement for not calling Soriano a non-elite player.
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Postby Zito is God » Mon May 22, 2006 12:09 am

Did losing Soriano hurt the Yankees? Did he help the Rangers out at all? Is he helping the Nats out right now?


Umm, yes, yes, and yes. You are digging a very deep hole right now that I doubt you will be able to get out of without a good ration of ridicule.

The only reason that the Yankees statistically do not show any disadvantage in losing Soriano is because they got ARod in return, kinda kills your arguement there.

Did he help the Rangers? Well, his ridiculous stats kinda speak for that.

Without Soriano, the Nats would be the worst team in the majors (they are close anyways). Soriano IS the Nats production, Johnson, Soriano and Vidro are the only players doing ANYTHING!

Just stop while you're in last place and down, but not out, yet.
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Postby Another Blown Save » Mon May 22, 2006 12:20 am

I think Soriano is a sell-high canadit.
3/4 of his XBH are HRs, which is oddly high.
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Postby cordscords » Mon May 22, 2006 8:33 am

Zito is God wrote:
Did losing Soriano hurt the Yankees? Did he help the Rangers out at all? Is he helping the Nats out right now?


Umm, yes, yes, and yes. You are digging a very deep hole right now that I doubt you will be able to get out of without a good ration of ridicule.

The only reason that the Yankees statistically do not show any disadvantage in losing Soriano is because they got ARod in return, kinda kills your arguement there.

Did he help the Rangers? Well, his ridiculous stats kinda speak for that.

Without Soriano, the Nats would be the worst team in the majors (they are close anyways). Soriano IS the Nats production, Johnson, Soriano and Vidro are the only players doing ANYTHING!

Just stop while you're in last place and down, but not out, yet.


Let me ask you something. Whenever a team drafts a player, calls a player up/sends down, swaps players in batting order, signs a FA, and makes a trade, the point of doing it is to make their team better. It may be a short term move to improve their team, or a long term move to improve their team. But the object of doing so is to get better.

The Yankees traded away Soriano and got A-Rod to get better. They signed Sheff as a FA that year to get better. They traded for Kevin Brown to get better. They signed Tom Gordon and traded for Javier Vazquez to get better.

The bottom line is the Yankees signed a whole bunch of productive players. A-Rod being the guy who was supposed to have the biggest impact, push the Yankees over the top, and win a WS.

They finish 101-61, just like they did in 2003. A-Rod earns the name A-Choke.

As for Soriano helping out the Rangers in 2004, he was 8th on the team in OBP amongst players with at least 280 AB. The Rangers were already an offensive powerhouse, so the only thing he really helped the Rangers out with is SB.

And if he makes bad teams better, why do the Nationals have a worse record at this point in the season than they did last year? I don't care about how other players are performing, but did the Nats really have a big roster shakeup? A few players are gone, but are they really going to miss Vinny Castilla and Christian Guzman? The same core of guys that put together a good year last year are still there, plus Soriano, and they are doing worse at this point in the season.

Have I dug my way out yet?
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Postby Ender » Mon May 22, 2006 9:08 am

Soriano's value is terrible when compared to how much money he makes. If you can ignore the monetary side of things then of course he helps your team. He doesn't walk so his OPS is low, he doesn't hit for average anymore and he's a terrible fielder. Look at any of a number of stats that try to rate a players overall value and he's barely over league average yet makes top player money.
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