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Sabathia = Not enough credit?

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Sabathia = Not enough credit?

Postby jondunc » Sat May 20, 2006 11:08 am

I haven't seen any threads recently about this oft-maligned big guy. He's never really reached his potential, but over his career he hasn't received nearly enough credit for what he's done IMO. We all know that wins are not a good indicator of a pitcher's worth and his career 4.03 ERA and 1.31 WHIP leave something to be desired. However, if he matures into his stuff we could be overlooking one of, if not the greatest, pitchers his age. He just doesn't seem to get any credit for starting at least 30 games every year since '01, when he was 20. Here's how he stacks up against some other notable pitchers his age by wins and win percentage. Only Santana has a chance to equal or surpass his wins.

Career record at age 25: 72-46, .610 win pct.

Other young pitchers of note:
Mark Prior (25): 41-23, .640
Johan Santana (24): 63-29, .685
Jake Peavy (25): 49-35, .583
Carlos Zambrano (24): 50-37, .575
Dontrelle Willis (24): 47-31, .603
Rich Harden (24): 29-16, .644
Josh Beckett (26): 46-35, .568

What do you think they will have done by age 25?
Francisco Liriano (22): 3-2
Cole Hamels (22): 0-0
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Postby Yoda » Sat May 20, 2006 11:19 am

I've been pumping CC since pre season 05. He started to really figure it out in the second half and has carried it over to this year so far.

He's big, throws hard and has good off speed pitches. Walks were limiting him in the past but now he has 28/7 K/BB in 32.1 IP. 4 of those BBs came in his first start back from injury.

If he can keep the BB down, I can see him contending for the Cy. People forget how young he is and he has been filthy the last 3 games. Try to trade for him now if you can.
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Re: Sabathia = Not enough credit?

Postby The Jury » Sat May 20, 2006 12:16 pm

jondunc wrote:I haven't seen any threads recently about this oft-maligned big guy. He's never really reached his potential, but over his career he hasn't received nearly enough credit for what he's done IMO. We all know that wins are not a good indicator of a pitcher's worth and his career 4.03 ERA and 1.31 WHIP leave something to be desired. However, if he matures into his stuff we could be overlooking one of, if not the greatest, pitchers his age. He just doesn't seem to get any credit for starting at least 30 games every year since '01, when he was 20. Here's how he stacks up against some other notable pitchers his age by wins and win percentage. Only Santana has a chance to equal or surpass his wins.

Career record at age 25: 72-46, .610 win pct.

Other young pitchers of note:
Mark Prior (25): 41-23, .640
Johan Santana (24): 63-29, .685
Jake Peavy (25): 49-35, .583
Carlos Zambrano (24): 50-37, .575
Dontrelle Willis (24): 47-31, .603
Rich Harden (24): 29-16, .644
Josh Beckett (26): 46-35, .568

What do you think they will have done by age 25?
Francisco Liriano (22): 3-2
Cole Hamels (22): 0-0


Interesting, but I don't see wins to be as good an indicator of ability as others numbers. I would think most educated people would agree that Prior, Santana, Peavy, Zambrano, Harden, and Beckett are better pitchers than Sabathia. I'm not so sure about Willis though.
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Postby hybrid » Sat May 20, 2006 12:37 pm

I remember me and Yoda liking him a lot before the season started. And just to quote myself since I just commented on CC in another thread ...

He is really just continuing where he left off last year and I'm surprised he is getting left under the radar so much still. If you combine his stats this year w/ his last 2 months of last year, he's simply been amazing.

Last 16 starts: 12 W - 2 L - 108 2/3 IP - 81H - 26ER - 29BB - 102K - 2.15 ERA - 1.02 WHIP

Something clicked last year for him at the end of the year and he is just mowing down guys since. He doesn't just try to over power guys, he mixes up his pitches very well and w/ his stuff has been doing great.
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Postby TurdFerguson » Sat May 20, 2006 1:50 pm

hybrid wrote:I remember me and Yoda liking him a lot before the season started. And just to quote myself since I just commented on CC in another thread ...

He is really just continuing where he left off last year and I'm surprised he is getting left under the radar so much still. If you combine his stats this year w/ his last 2 months of last year, he's simply been amazing.

Last 16 starts: 12 W - 2 L - 108 2/3 IP - 81H - 26ER - 29BB - 102K - 2.15 ERA - 1.02 WHIP

Something clicked last year for him at the end of the year and he is just mowing down guys since. He doesn't just try to over power guys, he mixes up his pitches very well and w/ his stuff has been doing great.
Hit the nail on the head.I drafted him in a dynasty league last year and he finally looks like he is starting to figure it out.
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Postby TheYanks04 » Sat May 20, 2006 3:03 pm

I dunno. I here he has quite a credit line at Burger King and Micky D's.
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Postby clevername » Sat May 20, 2006 3:22 pm

I "overpaid" in a trade for him midseason last year because I felt this was coming. He proved me right in the 2nd half helping me to win my league.

Unfortunately, I didn't "overpay" for him in the draft this year (and didn't keep him from last year)...and he's playing too well for his owner to give him up. I'm still going to chase him and will probably overpay again.
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Re: Sabathia = Not enough credit?

Postby jondunc » Sun May 21, 2006 2:57 pm

The Jury wrote:Interesting, but I don't see wins to be as good an indicator of ability as others numbers. I would think most educated people would agree that Prior, Santana, Peavy, Zambrano, Harden, and Beckett are better pitchers than Sabathia. I'm not so sure about Willis though.

Of course that's true, but it's not that much of an arbitrary figure, especially when win percentage is included. The point is every pitcher except Santana is pretty much 20+ wins back, and that's not just luck. Besides, at what point does a "better" pitcher that constantly gets hurt stop being better than one who chugs along and consistently succeeds?
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Postby jondunc » Sun May 21, 2006 2:59 pm

I'll give you Santana, Peavy, and maybe Zambrano. CC is a better pitcher than Prior, Beckett, and Harden though IMO.
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Postby giants! » Sun May 21, 2006 4:40 pm

jondunc wrote:I'll give you Santana, Peavy, and maybe Zambrano. CC is a better pitcher than Prior, Beckett, and Harden though IMO.


Santana better than Harden and Prior?
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