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The HOLD category is a joke

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Postby wrveres » Thu May 18, 2006 4:57 am

NZF wrote:
wrveres wrote:
NZF wrote:
wrveres wrote:odds are you wont win ..

checkback at the end of the week, and let us know please..
who are his releivers ?


Looper and Vizcaino. He also spot started Cruz today :-D


yeah 90% he will beat you ...
He has at least 6 chances this weekend to your none at the worst its a tie, so he wins half a point.

And with something like Cruz blowing up, while his ERA is screwed for the week, the WHIP is still salvagable, and two solid guys in the pen can help you fix that, in a weekly matchup.



Cards are at Kansas so that cuts his chances down to 3 ;-) Vizcaino has pitched 3 of the past 4 days and not looked like getting a hold so why should that change. At worst I win 1-0. At best I win 3-0 with another couple of burgled holds by Gonzalez and Turnbow ;-7


the Royals swept the Indians a week ago, and if they are in the game with STL, its going to be a close one ;-7
Vizcaino looks sketchy for the weekend ..

I agree his bullpen is sketchy overall, and my chances seem dwindling ... but .. I'll stick to my guns .. ;-D

go 'crappy bullpen'

go Royals :-D
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Postby Jimbo OZ » Thu May 18, 2006 7:04 am

wrveres wrote:
NZF wrote:
wrveres wrote:
NZF wrote:
wrveres wrote:odds are you wont win ..

checkback at the end of the week, and let us know please..
who are his releivers ?


Looper and Vizcaino. He also spot started Cruz today :-D


yeah 90% he will beat you ...
He has at least 6 chances this weekend to your none at the worst its a tie, so he wins half a point.

And with something like Cruz blowing up, while his ERA is screwed for the week, the WHIP is still salvagable, and two solid guys in the pen can help you fix that, in a weekly matchup.



Cards are at Kansas so that cuts his chances down to 3 ;-) Vizcaino has pitched 3 of the past 4 days and not looked like getting a hold so why should that change. At worst I win 1-0. At best I win 3-0 with another couple of burgled holds by Gonzalez and Turnbow ;-7


the Royals swept the Indians a week ago, and if they are in the game with STL, its going to be a close one ;-7
Vizcaino looks sketchy for the weekend ..

I agree his bullpen is sketchy overall, and my chances seem dwindling ... but .. I'll stick to my guns .. ;-D

go 'crappy bullpen'

go Royals :-D


I am going to assume this part of the thread is referring to my team and my matchup. If not, it certainly is some sort of coincidence - A team with Looper, Vizcaino, and Cruz playing against a NZer who has Turnbow. What are the odds?

Anyways, here are some more facts:

1. My bullpen has a record of 4-1-1 in the holds categories this year. I wouldn't mind that record for all my other cats.

2. Cruz was not meant to be a spot start. I don't use that strategy as we have limited moves. However, after giving up 9 runs in 0.2 IP he is not likely to get another start.

3. NZF claims he has dumped the holds category. If that is the case I don't know why he has Eyre on his staff. :-? Ray King was also there for a while! 8-o
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Postby swyck » Thu May 18, 2006 8:07 am

NZF wrote:
bigh0rt wrote:
Yeah, if 1 hold is winning it for you, then I imagine a lot of your league is punting them and not just you. On an 11 man staff with no bench, I go with 5/3/3 for Starters/Closers/Setup Men, with most of my league going 6/3/2 or 5/4/2. I never punt categories, especially in H2H. On average, 3 holds should put you in line for at least a tie in the category in a given week, but 1 should almost never, ever win it for you.



No one else is punting them and 1 hold would have won me or at least tied me 3 of the 7 weeks. It's a crapshoot like no other category and it should be wiped.

Then dont play in leagues that have them! :-[

I like it because it brings more relievers into the game, and so do many others. That's its purpose in fantasy. Saying it should be wiped is silly. Why everyone have to play by your rules?
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Postby ukrneal » Thu May 18, 2006 8:16 am

COme on. Every category is a crapshoot of some sort. A guy comes in to relieve blows the lead. What does he get: a win, and NO blow to his ERA. Why is holds any different? Maybe you just need some help on ow to play the category.
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Postby number9 » Thu May 18, 2006 8:21 am

Yeah, I guess the fact that holds bring in a lot of middle relievers into the talent pool is the best reason to have it.

The only reason why Saves are more predictable than Holds is that managers use pitchers according to the Save situation (like someone already pointed out about closers sitting down when a 3 run lead becomes a 4 run lead, or Hoffman sitting for a week, etc.). If managers actually used relievers most efficiently, the best reliever on the team (usually the closer) will earn a mixture of Saves and Holds by entering the game in various high leverage situations, not just the 9th with a lead of 3 runs or less. But Holds are not an official MLB category, and until Saves are renamed Holds, or vice versa, and both treated equally by MLB, we probably won't be seeing that day.

Anyways, it's also fun trying to determine which team will offer the most Hold/Save chances, and recognize how the manager is using the bullpen. Seems to add an extra layer of depth in fantasy baseball.
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Postby JTWood » Thu May 18, 2006 8:59 am

number9 wrote:If managers actually used relievers most efficiently, the best reliever on the team (usually the closer) will earn a mixture of Saves and Holds by entering the game in various high leverage situations, not just the 9th with a lead of 3 runs or less.

High leverage? Someone's been hanging out at Fan Graphs again.

:-D
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Postby chadlincoln » Thu May 18, 2006 9:10 am

I like it because it gives value to middle relievers that otherwise in standard 5X5 don't have value.
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Postby Cobra_Kai » Thu May 18, 2006 9:57 am

I like it, as long as it's applied properly. A league that I'm in annually decided to add a few categories this year, which was cool. One of them was holds, which I liked.

The problem, is that the commish actually decreased the roster sizes from last year - instead of having 23 spots with 2 DL slots, we now have 21 with 1 DL spot. Add to that the fact that you have to carry at least 1 MR guy (if not more) to remain competitive in Holds, and it's making player management a bitch. Right now I've got Cantu and Crisp taking up bench spots because Patterson is using my DL slot - and having to carry Shields plus random other guys is making it a nuisance.

Long story short, I like holds, just give me the extra roster slot to carry that MR.
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Postby Matthias » Thu May 18, 2006 10:26 am

wrveres wrote:What they should do, is just rename the 'save' to 'hold' or visa versa. It would essentialy make all relievers the same, and might even have an added benefit. Managers would be more inclined to use their best relievers when they need them instead of making them sit for an entire week (ie Bruce Bochy's handling of Trevor Hoffman) .. :-t


That's basically what I've done in my Sportsline league.

I've created a RELIEF category which is: Saves + Holds - Blown Saves + Relief Wins - Relief Losses. And then the regular Wins category is Starter Wins only (since I think a starter going 5+ and leaving with the lead is substantitvely different from a reliever coming in for as little as one out and getting the win).

The way I see it is if a reliever came in during the middle/late part of a game and held a lead, I don't care if it's the 7th inning or the 9th. He did his job (to the extent that these things measure it). And if he came in at a tie game and held the tie until his team went ahead, he did his job. If he comes in at the top of the ninth, blows the save, and his team comes back in the bottom of the inning, he didn't do his job.

You can discuss ad nauseum about the relative virtues of the win-oriented statistics (Wins, Saves, and Holds). That they don't measure contribution, there's better stats, why not use ERA+, yadda, yadda, yadda. I'll even agree with you. BUT, the hold is just as much of an accurate measure of a reliever performing his job as a save is. So if you're going to use one, I think it's only accurate to use them both.

As was said earlier, you can't run an MLB team with just starters and closers. Don't know why you think you should run your fantasy team the same way.
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Postby bigh0rt » Thu May 18, 2006 11:45 am

Matthias wrote:
wrveres wrote:What they should do, is just rename the 'save' to 'hold' or visa versa. It would essentialy make all relievers the same, and might even have an added benefit. Managers would be more inclined to use their best relievers when they need them instead of making them sit for an entire week (ie Bruce Bochy's handling of Trevor Hoffman) .. :-t


That's basically what I've done in my Sportsline league.

I've created a RELIEF category which is: Saves + Holds - Blown Saves + Relief Wins - Relief Losses. And then the regular Wins category is Starter Wins only (since I think a starter going 5+ and leaving with the lead is substantitvely different from a reliever coming in for as little as one out and getting the win).

The way I see it is if a reliever came in during the middle/late part of a game and held a lead, I don't care if it's the 7th inning or the 9th. He did his job (to the extent that these things measure it). And if he came in at a tie game and held the tie until his team went ahead, he did his job. If he comes in at the top of the ninth, blows the save, and his team comes back in the bottom of the inning, he didn't do his job.

You can discuss ad nauseum about the relative virtues of the win-oriented statistics (Wins, Saves, and Holds). That they don't measure contribution, there's better stats, why not use ERA+, yadda, yadda, yadda. I'll even agree with you. BUT, the hold is just as much of an accurate measure of a reliever performing his job as a save is. So if you're going to use one, I think it's only accurate to use them both.

As was said earlier, you can't run an MLB team with just starters and closers. Don't know why you think you should run your fantasy team the same way.


That's interesting. I like the idea.
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