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The HOLD category is a joke

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The HOLD category is a joke

Postby NZF » Thu May 18, 2006 2:05 am

It's way more a crapshoot than any other. First time I've played H2H this year and the first time I've been in a league that uses holds and I'm not impressed.

How does Derrick Turnbow get credited with a hold after coming in and almost blowing a 3 run lead?

What a joke :-t
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Re: The HOLD category is a joke

Postby TheYanks04 » Thu May 18, 2006 2:39 am

NZF wrote:It's way more a crapshoot than any other. First time I've played H2H this year and the first time I've been in a league that uses holds and I'm not impressed.

How does Derrick Turnbow get credited with a hold after coming in and almost blowing a 3 run lead?

What a joke :-t


AMEN!

Not to mention the fact that most of the time you can go without even drafting a single holds guy and pick them up off the wire.
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Postby KolbSaves » Thu May 18, 2006 2:41 am

How many times are we going to have this thread?
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Postby wrveres » Thu May 18, 2006 2:46 am

The Hold rule is exactly the same rule as the Save rule.
The only difference is one applies to the finish of the game.

That's it...

Turnbow could have just as easily gotten a save tonight, and things like one out saves happen all the time in baseball. To be honest both are screwy stats, but I really do not see any difference between the two.

It is also the only stat I know of, that forces you to recognize and implement bullpens into some sort of fantasy environment. And since they are so important to real teams, why not find a way to make them important for us. Holds seem to work better for H2H vs. Roto though, as you will see players like Rincon and Linebrink being drafted before high-risk closers.

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Postby NZF » Thu May 18, 2006 2:49 am

KolbSaves wrote:How many times are we going to have this thread?


1. until you agree with me and 2. until MLB get rid of it
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Postby bigh0rt » Thu May 18, 2006 2:58 am

wrveres wrote:The Hold rule is exactly the same rule as the Save rule.
The only difference is one applies to the finish of the game.

That's it...

Turnbow could have just as easily gotten a save tonight, and things like one out saves happen all the time in baseball. To be honest both are screwy stats, but I really do not see any difference between the two.

It is also the only stat I know of, that forces you to recognize and implement bullpens into some sort of fantasy environment. And since they are so important to real teams, why not find a way to make them important for us. Holds seem to work better for H2H vs. Roto though, as you will see players like Rincon and Linebrink being drafted before high-risk closers.

VORP at work


This is the exact reason I play with the stat.
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Postby NZF » Thu May 18, 2006 3:04 am

wrveres wrote:The Hold rule is exactly the same rule as the Save rule.
The only difference is one applies to the finish of the game.

That's it...



I see the rules as being very different. For a start more than one player on each team can get holds in the same game. The save rule although not great (especially the ridiculous clause about pitching 3 effective innings even with your team potentially up by 20 runs) makes far more sense than does holds.

I do accept your point about utilising bullpens and maybe if the hold rule WAS the same as the save rule (ie. 8th inning set up guy holding a lead for the winning team) then that would at least have a little more credibility than the current situation.
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Postby wrveres » Thu May 18, 2006 3:12 am

NZF wrote:
wrveres wrote:The Hold rule is exactly the same rule as the Save rule.
The only difference is one applies to the finish of the game.

That's it...



I see the rules as being very different. For a start more than one player on each team can get holds in the same game. The save rule although not great (especially the ridiculous clause about pitching 3 effective innings even with your team potentially up by 20 runs) makes far more sense than does holds.

I do accept your point about utilising bullpens and maybe if the hold rule WAS the same as the save rule (ie. 8th inning set up guy holding a lead for the winning team) then that would at least have a little more credibility than the current situation.


I realize that more than one person can get a hold, but then again, with saves, there can only be 'one' ending to a game. Two saves in a game is therefore impossible, so they just call them holds ;-7
If you blow a 'hold', its credited as a 'blown save' ..

they are the same

but are you saying should only get a 'hold' for pitching the 8th inning?
What about closers if they come in, in the 8th inning?
Should they not get credit for the save then?

its a double edge sword cus they are the same stat.
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Postby NZF » Thu May 18, 2006 3:24 am

The hold is not even an official statistic, it was created as a way to credit middle relief pitchers for a job well done.

How was Derrick Turnbow's job well done tonight :-?

If a reliever comes into a game to protect a lead, gets at least one out and leaves without giving up that lead, he gets a hold even if he leaves inherited base runners for the next pitcher. What makes it worse is that if these inherited runners score and the lead is blown then the hold still stands.
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Postby wrveres » Thu May 18, 2006 3:40 am

NZF wrote:The hold is not even an official statistic, it was created as a way to credit middle relief pitchers for a job well done.

How was Derrick Turnbow's job well done tonight :-?

If a reliever comes into a game to protect a lead, gets at least one out and leaves without giving up that lead, he gets a hold even if he leaves inherited base runners for the next pitcher. What makes it worse is that if these inherited runners score and the lead is blown then the hold still stands.

Also, I don't think a pitcher gets credited for a hold if the lead is 3 runs, unlike a save.


its three runs for a hold too..

everything you just said, also can be applied to saves.
Had Turnbow gotten the next out, he would have gotten a save. should he be less deserving of it.
As for inherited runners, I fail to see how the are the responibilty of the pitcher after he has been taken out of the game, since the base runners were .. inherited.
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