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Postby AcidRock23 » Sat May 13, 2006 1:20 pm

I'm pretty sure that an agent CAN prohibit you from negotiating on your own behalf.
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Postby Matthias » Sat May 13, 2006 1:35 pm

Dawgpound 1613 wrote:I'm sorry, but when did personal responsibility go out the window?

First off, we're talking about a CONTRACT, which requires no professional expertise to enter. The law states that anyone over the age of 18 has the legal right to enter into a contract and MUST abide by the terms.

People the age of 18 do NOT automatically get the right to give medical opinions, give legal opinions, be a licensed CPA, etc. To do so, they must pass exams, have the required schooling, etc. None of that is required for entering into a contract, so the situations here are SLIGHTLY different in terms of scope than a player signing a professional services contract.

Second, at the end of the day, the person seeking those opinions bears the ultimate responsibility for their actions. If the doctor tells them to ignore the growth, and they do, the doctor's toe doesn't fall off. If you blindly follow the accountant's advice and file your tax return, the IRS doesn't seek out the accountant, the IRS comes after you. As such, if you don't think that professional is giving you the right "advice", it is your responsibility to get a second opinion. If you'll notice, MANY athletes get them, especially in medical situations. What is being "naive" is to presume that no "advisor" ever makes mistakes and blindly follow their advice.

Now, you may have a cause of action against the "advisor" IF the advice was negligent, but that's something you will have to prove - it isn't automatic. Also, you only have that right because you've entered into a legal relationship with that advisor. Here, there is no contract between the player and Boras b/c to do so would make the player a pro and would force the player to give up playing. As such, Boras is not an AGENT, but an ADVISOR. There are different legal standards between those two relationships, the least of which is that Harrington and/or Hochevar still retained the ability to go to college - a very powerful negotiating position that players rarely give up. And as Harrington has never sued Boras (and based on getting nothing vs. $4.1M, I'd think he'd have a decent cause of action IF there was a legal relationship between them), this just provides additional evidence that Boras had no legal right to force Harrington to reject the offer.

End of the day, Boras gives his advice. You can follow it. You can ignore it. But he can't legally force you to follow it. This is not a situation that requires professional expertise to understand (e.g. medicine or accounting), this is a simple contract. As an 18 y.o., you have the legal ability to enter the contract and make those decisions that affect your life. If you don't like the advice, get a parent involved or get a second opinion. But if you blindly follow the advice, and it turns out badly, you have no one to blame but yourself. It's called personal responsibility.


Ok.

A) Don't hector me on advisor vs. agent and contract law. Three years and more than $100k of law school has taught me just fine without your incomplete haranging, thank you ver much.

B) Contract law is rife with exceptions to enforceability even when someone is 18: diminished capacity, mistake of fact, and contracts of adhesion to name a few.

C) Noone here is arguing that Boras was a fiduciary and that he breached his attendant duties. What people here are arguing is that this high school kid blew off a huge contract: who's more at fault for that decision?

D) A contract may require professional expertise to enter if the other party is more sophisticated and it's apparent that you don't truly understand the terms. See adhesion above.

E) Just because you're given an option by an advisor doesn't make it fully your decision. You try to explain people their options and the upside/downside of each but they often go with the option that the person they hired to look at it reccomends. Boras has a legendary database of comparables, statistics, and salaries. If I'm 18 years old and he says I think we can do better, I believe him.

Now step off of your soapbox.
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Postby Dawgpound 1613 » Sat May 13, 2006 11:03 pm

AcidRock23 wrote:I'm pretty sure that an agent CAN prohibit you from negotiating on your own behalf.


You're right, but Boras isn't an agent. That's the key.

EDIT: He is an "agent" after a player signs a contract. Until then he is an advisor. If the player signs with him before signing, they forfeit their college eligibility (ala NBA wannabes who "test the draft" but don't sign with an agent allowing them to return). To give up college eligibility gives up one of their biggest bargaining chips.
Last edited by Dawgpound 1613 on Sat May 13, 2006 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Dawgpound 1613 » Sat May 13, 2006 11:22 pm

Matthias wrote:
Dawgpound 1613 wrote:I'm sorry, but when did personal responsibility go out the window?

First off, we're talking about a CONTRACT, which requires no professional expertise to enter. The law states that anyone over the age of 18 has the legal right to enter into a contract and MUST abide by the terms.

People the age of 18 do NOT automatically get the right to give medical opinions, give legal opinions, be a licensed CPA, etc. To do so, they must pass exams, have the required schooling, etc. None of that is required for entering into a contract, so the situations here are SLIGHTLY different in terms of scope than a player signing a professional services contract.

Second, at the end of the day, the person seeking those opinions bears the ultimate responsibility for their actions. If the doctor tells them to ignore the growth, and they do, the doctor's toe doesn't fall off. If you blindly follow the accountant's advice and file your tax return, the IRS doesn't seek out the accountant, the IRS comes after you. As such, if you don't think that professional is giving you the right "advice", it is your responsibility to get a second opinion. If you'll notice, MANY athletes get them, especially in medical situations. What is being "naive" is to presume that no "advisor" ever makes mistakes and blindly follow their advice.

Now, you may have a cause of action against the "advisor" IF the advice was negligent, but that's something you will have to prove - it isn't automatic. Also, you only have that right because you've entered into a legal relationship with that advisor. Here, there is no contract between the player and Boras b/c to do so would make the player a pro and would force the player to give up playing. As such, Boras is not an AGENT, but an ADVISOR. There are different legal standards between those two relationships, the least of which is that Harrington and/or Hochevar still retained the ability to go to college - a very powerful negotiating position that players rarely give up. And as Harrington has never sued Boras (and based on getting nothing vs. $4.1M, I'd think he'd have a decent cause of action IF there was a legal relationship between them), this just provides additional evidence that Boras had no legal right to force Harrington to reject the offer.

End of the day, Boras gives his advice. You can follow it. You can ignore it. But he can't legally force you to follow it. This is not a situation that requires professional expertise to understand (e.g. medicine or accounting), this is a simple contract. As an 18 y.o., you have the legal ability to enter the contract and make those decisions that affect your life. If you don't like the advice, get a parent involved or get a second opinion. But if you blindly follow the advice, and it turns out badly, you have no one to blame but yourself. It's called personal responsibility.


Ok.

A) Don't hector me on advisor vs. agent and contract law. Three years and more than $100k of law school has taught me just fine without your incomplete haranging, thank you ver much.

B) Contract law is rife with exceptions to enforceability even when someone is 18: diminished capacity, mistake of fact, and contracts of adhesion to name a few.

C) Noone here is arguing that Boras was a fiduciary and that he breached his attendant duties. What people here are arguing is that this high school kid blew off a huge contract: who's more at fault for that decision?

D) A contract may require professional expertise to enter if the other party is more sophisticated and it's apparent that you don't truly understand the terms. See adhesion above.

E) Just because you're given an option by an advisor doesn't make it fully your decision. You try to explain people their options and the upside/downside of each but they often go with the option that the person they hired to look at it reccomends. Boras has a legendary database of comparables, statistics, and salaries. If I'm 18 years old and he says I think we can do better, I believe him.

Now step off of your soapbox.


$100k for law school. Wow, what a waste.

1) If you don't realize that Boras is not an "agent" and is an advisor, then might I suggest a refresher in contract law.

2) I know my contract law, thank you. Please provide a single fact that supports diminished capacity, mistake or adhesion IN THIS CASE. I don't care that some contracts by some greater than 18 "can" be overturned, show me here where these kids did not have capacity.

3) Um, the kids/parents who made the final call, perhaps? "We'll give you $4.1M". "Um, we want more". "$4.1M is our final offer" - at that point, if the family says "No, we want more" - they are the ones making the call, not Boras, regardless of whether Boras thinks they can get more.

4) Again, I don't care whether SOME contracts require professional expertise. Show me HERE where professional expertise is required. This is a simple professional services contract. They pay him to play baseball. Thousands of kids sign these types of contracts every year, not to mention the thousands more that sign letters of intent to get college scholarships. This is not a complicated area and one where professional expertise is required.

5) Huh? How is it not the player's decision? Boras has no legal right to compel the kid to follow his advice. NONE. As a lawyer, you know that if you give bad advice to a client, you can be sued for malpractice if the advice was negligent. Where is the lawsuit here? As you should know, you can advise a client to do one thing, but they are not required to do so. Yes, many will follow the advice of the "expert", but they are not required to do so and at the end of the day it is their decision, not Boras', to accept an offer.

Lastly, if you are an attorney, maybe you are familiar with a little document called the Constitution and things called "Amendments"? The first one gives me the freedom of speech. So, if you don't mind, I will continue to express my opinion that Harrington was a fool regardless of how much of a tool I think Boras is. What did he honestly think he was going to get? $4.3M? $4.5M? Honestly, it would be great if there were more situations like Harrington's. Then maybe these players wouldn't blindly follow Boras' advice. But, if they do, they deserve the consequences if it doesn't work out.
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Postby number9 » Sun May 14, 2006 4:39 am

Too bad potential major leaguers are being too greedy and Boras is using them (as pawns?) to maximize the market for his own benefit.
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Postby lefty31mazur » Sun May 14, 2006 5:10 am

I hung out with Harrington a couple of times when we played St. Paul. He was a real good kid but seemed like he was just the sort of guy to believe anything...and I actually had dinner with Tanzer once before this whole deal and he was the sort of guy that would say anything. He just loved the sound of his own voice. Unfortunate for Harrington...his decision to play in the Northern league after taking a year off in his hold out was a big mistake too. Decent college pitchers are often humbled in that league. It is better than high A ball. Anybody with baseball sence would have at least advised him to go to junior college if he was not going to sign.
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Postby nuggets » Sun May 14, 2006 1:17 pm

Yoda wrote:
Danimal wrote:Boras is bad for baseball. Period.


I used to think this also but... What Boras does is the American way..


:-P I don't know enough about him, but that makes me what to puke.

Matthias wrote:B) Contract law is rife with exceptions to enforceability even when someone is 18: diminished capacity, mistake of fact, and contracts of adhesion to name a few.

C) Noone here is arguing that Boras was a fiduciary and that he breached his attendant duties. What people here are arguing is that this high school kid blew off a huge contract: who's more at fault for that decision?

D) A contract may require professional expertise to enter if the other party is more sophisticated and it's apparent that you don't truly understand the terms. See adhesion above.

E) Just because you're given an option by an advisor doesn't make it fully your decision. You try to explain people their options and the upside/downside of each but they often go with the option that the person they hired to look at it reccomends. Boras has a legendary database of comparables, statistics, and salaries. If I'm 18 years old and he says I think we can do better, I believe him.


More simply, a kid out of HS is relatively ignorant, Boras is the opposite. You can put blame on a kid for not having years of study and experience in life and contract negotiation if you want. It's unrealistic to do so in my mind.

It is naive to protect a snake like Boras and put all the blame on his victim.

number9 wrote:Too bad potential major leaguers are being too greedy and Boras is using them (as pawns?) to maximize the market for his own benefit.


That's a good way to look at it. I'm pretty sure Boras takes advantage of ignorance and stupidity and encourages that greed as well. The guy probably would be a killer car salesman. Anyone experienced in that field knows (most) guys like that sold their soles to the devil long ago.

Yoda, morality and legality don't always match up in this country, but I couldn't go so far to say someone like Boras defines the American way, or at least the way we should want it to be. We try to balance our laws with our morals, I can see what someone like Boras does being regulated in an effort to do so.
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Postby Apollo » Sun May 14, 2006 1:51 pm

It seems to me that Boras is making a career out of giving dubious advice to kids. Sure, you can say Harrington was dumb to hire him, and he had the right to tell Boras to shove it... but at the end of the day, Boras is making a career giving dubious advice to kids. And I have a problem with that.
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Postby nuggets » Sun May 14, 2006 2:10 pm

Apollo wrote:It seems to me that Boras is making a career out of giving dubious advice to kids. Sure, you can say Harrington was dumb to hire him, and he had the right to tell Boras to shove it... but at the end of the day, Boras is making a career giving dubious advice to kids. And I have a problem with that.


Equivocal as well. I agree.
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Postby AcidRock23 » Sun May 14, 2006 2:17 pm

Dawgpound 1613 wrote:
AcidRock23 wrote:I'm pretty sure that an agent CAN prohibit you from negotiating on your own behalf.


You're right, but Boras isn't an agent. That's the key.

EDIT: He is an "agent" after a player signs a contract. Until then he is an advisor. If the player signs with him before signing, they forfeit their college eligibility (ala NBA wannabes who "test the draft" but don't sign with an agent allowing them to return). To give up college eligibility gives up one of their biggest bargaining chips.


Thanks for the clarification. The whole thing just reeks of shadiness to me. I guess it wasn't an issue for me, but if I were a high school pitcher and someone waved a decent chunk of change in front of me, I would have to think that the smart play would be to take the money and pitch and take the benefit of some coaching, experience, etc. to see if you had the chops to make it. JuCo seems like a very good alternative as well. Turning down 4 million bucks does not seem smart and it seems to me as if you'd only consider doing that if you were listening to someone like Scott Boras.
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