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Another installment of: What would YOU do?

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Another installment of: What would YOU do?

Postby pokerplaya » Wed May 10, 2006 4:07 am

I'm sitting at a full ring table (10 players) and in MP I pick up AQ suited. I open the pot for a bet of 4X BB. (.10/.25 blinds). Next player to act is very short stacked and goes all in for another 1.20. After him, I get 2 other callers of this raise and reraise.

I'm fairly new to the table, but obviously having 3 players cold call the re-raise, the table is pretty loose.

Flop comes down Q84 rainbow, and I lead, being out of position for 5.00 into the 8 dollar and change pot. The next player to act immediately goes all in for the rest of his stack, a raise of approximately 20 bucks.

Action goes fold, fold, and then to me. I end up mucking my hand of TPTK, to that massive raise.

Result: The guy who put me all in has nothing, and bluffed me off my hand with A6. He takes my 5 bucks, but loses the side pot to the guy who was all in who flopped two pair with Q8.

So...I obviously made the wrong move results wise, but do you lay down your top pair, top kicker not knowing the table, or the player, after being reraised essentially your entire stack?

And would you change my play at any point in the hand?

Thanks again for playing..... :-D

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Postby SkeetNation » Wed May 10, 2006 7:13 am

I would of stayed in, you've got one of the Queen's the other is on the board, and with 3 people going with you before the flop and then 2 after, I would of put my money on one of those people having at least on of them, so personally I wouldn't of worried about going against trips. And with that ace kicker if you get beat at least you know you played it right.
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Postby Pogotheostrich » Wed May 10, 2006 8:59 am

It is hard to call for your entire stack but the only hands that could have been better than you were Q8, Q4, 88, 44, 84. To call a raise and reraise with any of those hand is very loose.
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Postby Dan Lambskin » Wed May 10, 2006 9:28 am

Pogotheostrich wrote:It is hard to call for your entire stack but the only hands that could have been better than you were Q8, Q4, 88, 44, 84. To call a raise and reraise with any of those hand is very loose.


and AA and KK

i would have folded, thinking he either had a set of 88's or AA or KK...$20 is too much for me to risk when you've only put about $6 into the pot
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Postby Pogotheostrich » Wed May 10, 2006 9:32 am

Dan Lambskin wrote:
Pogotheostrich wrote:It is hard to call for your entire stack but the only hands that could have been better than you were Q8, Q4, 88, 44, 84. To call a raise and reraise with any of those hand is very loose.


and AA and KK

Right but why slow call the AA or KK and then go all in after the flop when someone could have hit something? With a bet that big I have to think he has a set of 8's or he is bluffing.
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Postby Dan Lambskin » Wed May 10, 2006 10:18 am

Pogotheostrich wrote:
Dan Lambskin wrote:
Pogotheostrich wrote:It is hard to call for your entire stack but the only hands that could have been better than you were Q8, Q4, 88, 44, 84. To call a raise and reraise with any of those hand is very loose.


and AA and KK

Right but why slow call the AA or KK and then go all in after the flop when someone could have hit something? With a bet that big I have to think he has a set of 8's or he is bluffing.


not everyone that plays poker is a good poker player...just pointing out those hands were out there as well
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Postby Madison » Wed May 10, 2006 11:43 am

Odd playing. $1 preflop, then the additional $1.20 preflop, then the $5 bet, then folded to a $20 raise while holding TPTK on the flop? Typically if someone's willing to overplay a hand like A/Q, and actually manage to hit one of the 6 outs on the flop, they are hoping to be in a position where they are reraised for all their money on the flop. Very strange.

My only question is what were you trying to do? Take down the blinds originally? You were not trying to take it down on the flop, or the bet would have been the pot at the very minimum, so I'm really confused by the way this hand went down.

My small stakes game is off seeing as how I haven't played at those stakes in quite some time, but typically 4X the big blind preflop is either an exceptionally weak hand trying to steal the blinds, or a very strong hand trying to isolate one player to bust. A/Q is neither weak, nor especially strong in a full ring game, so that raise is odd, but a little more normal given the low stakes. Calling the $1.20 reraise against the guy who went all in is definitely the right move to make. Now you flop TPTK and bet less than the pot. Why? If you wanted to appear strong, or make people pay to draw out on you, the bet should have been whatever was in the pot at the very minimum. If there was a chance you were going to fold to a raise (which you did), then why not check raise, or check and then see someone go all in giving you the choice of calling, or folding (and saving yourself the $5)? You got the best flop you could have reasonably wanted (odds of flopping two pair or a straight are not a realistic expectation, and had the ace hit instead of the queen, you could have easily been up against A/K with that many people in the pot, so the queen high on the flop was the best reasonable expectation for the flop, and that's what you got). You got the top pair, with the best kicker. If you're looking for something stronger than that to call a $20 raise on the flop, you're better off limping in with A/Q and slow playing whatever you hit. You'll save yourself a ton of money.

Personally, I'd have raised preflop to .75 cents (3X the blinds), called the reraise all in of $1.45 (if he had jumped), check raised on the flop (it's reasonable to assume someone would bluff at that one on the flop given the size of the pot), and called whatever was left in my stack if I was reraised.

The only other way to play that one is slow and try to keep it as cheap as possible. I don't suggest that course of action on a regular basis though. Nice to trap people with, tosses them a curveball, and makes them think the rest of the time they are playing against you, so there are advantages of doing that once in awhile, but I wouldn't do it all the time either. Just occasionally.
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Postby pokerplaya » Wed May 10, 2006 4:26 pm

My standard raise has always been 4X the BB. So, the difference between the 3 and 4 isn't really that great in my book. Calling the additional 1.20 also was pretty standard, I didn't really consider folding, especially since I was going to be the last one to act.

I also generally lead 2/3's into a pot as my standard bet into it. That seems to get the job done the majority of the time, and has done the trick for me the whole time I've been playing poker. Why not check raise? I'm not quite sure, but I generally don't use that strategy very often. If I flop something very strong, I usually bet it out, the straighfoward method is tricky enough for some people.

I was only afforded 15 seconds to make my decision, and at the last second I decided to dump the hand. I didn't have enough time to replay the hand in my head; if I had, I probably would have called, because as has been said before, what more could I have wanted in this situation?

My mistake.
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Postby Madison » Wed May 10, 2006 9:04 pm

pokerplaya wrote:My standard raise has always been 4X the BB. So, the difference between the 3 and 4 isn't really that great in my book. Calling the additional 1.20 also was pretty standard, I didn't really consider folding, especially since I was going to be the last one to act.

I also generally lead 2/3's into a pot as my standard bet into it. That seems to get the job done the majority of the time, and has done the trick for me the whole time I've been playing poker. Why not check raise? I'm not quite sure, but I generally don't use that strategy very often. If I flop something very strong, I usually bet it out, the straighfoward method is tricky enough for some people.

I was only afforded 15 seconds to make my decision, and at the last second I decided to dump the hand. I didn't have enough time to replay the hand in my head; if I had, I probably would have called, because as has been said before, what more could I have wanted in this situation?

My mistake.


"Standard raise", "standard call", "standard bet"........I'd gamble the guy who bluffed you out has played against you before and knew he could bluff you out.

What surprises me the most is that you had to think when you got raised on the flop. The 15 seconds is pretty irrelevant as most players know how they are going to play it as soon as the cards hit the table. Using time is only for show 99% of the time. How many hands per week do you play on average, and for how long have you been playing? If it's not much, or not long, then you'll see what I mean once you've logged a few hundred thousand hands. If you've logged a quarter of a million hands, then you might consider that you're overthinking things sometimes, which can be as destructive as not thinking at all. Just something to consider. :-)

Something else I should mention, make sure you're not playing like a robot. In other words, forget "standard" plays once you move up limits. If you're predictable, you'll get your tail kicked big time when you move up limits. Hurt me big time when I moved up to $2/$5 NL and $5/$10 NL. I made great money at first, but as time moved on, the profits got smaller and smaller and then there were some losing sessions, and I had to totally reconfigure my game in order to find the problem. Don't be predictable. ;-D
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Postby pokerplaya » Thu May 11, 2006 12:36 am

I take extensive notes on everyone I play. He had not.

I know that I'm not even close to 250k hands, so I'm very much still a beginner. It was nowhere near reflex. I put him on trip 8's and was very wrong. Simple as that.
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