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Is modern-day Pujols the best hitter ever?

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Postby nuggets » Tue May 02, 2006 2:52 pm

DGroundhog wrote:It's just scary to see that the guy has stepped up to the plate from Day 1 and delivered like nobody I've ever seen before.


Check out DiMaggio and Foxx (at 21).
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Postby Tavish » Tue May 02, 2006 5:48 pm

nuggets wrote:
Ender wrote:No pitcher fears Ichiro, he slaps a single and then you get the next guy out. He wouldn't even make a top 50 list of all time feared hitters.


He's proven to be among the best at getting on base in the clutch. If you are in the most critical situations (bases loaded, bottom 9th, 1 run lead, 2 outs) a player that is so good in the clutch and gets on base more often than Pujols can be just as, if not more deadly.

Pujols career OBP RISP/RISP 2 outs/Loaded .462/.489/.351, Ichiro .462/.507/.464.


Its the same problem that Ichiro has compared to other elite hitters in every situation. He is almost non-existant as a slugger. Pujols' OBP is slightly lower, yet he slugs .150 higher in those situations as well. The difference in RBIs in those situations is pretty telling.

RBI/PA RISP - RISP 2 Outs - Bases Loaded
Pujols .446 - .394 - 1.125
Ichiro .206 - .297 - 1.094

If you want to get the run home in those situations, Pujols is the man to take. If you want to get a run home in any other situation, Pujols is the man to take.
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Postby Havok1517 » Tue May 02, 2006 5:58 pm

A few batting titles and an MVP may help the Ichiro argument. But Ted Williams is still the best hitter of all-time unless Pujols can keep up his pace for another 10 year, which I doubt.
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Postby nuggets » Tue May 02, 2006 11:38 pm

Tavish wrote:
nuggets wrote:
Ender wrote:No pitcher fears Ichiro, he slaps a single and then you get the next guy out. He wouldn't even make a top 50 list of all time feared hitters.


He's proven to be among the best at getting on base in the clutch. If you are in the most critical situations (bases loaded, bottom 9th, 1 run lead, 2 outs) a player that is so good in the clutch and gets on base more often than Pujols can be just as, if not more deadly.

Pujols career OBP RISP/RISP 2 outs/Loaded .462/.489/.351, Ichiro .462/.507/.464.


Its the same problem that Ichiro has compared to other elite hitters in every situation. He is almost non-existant as a slugger. Pujols' OBP is slightly lower, yet he slugs .150 higher in those situations as well. The difference in RBIs in those situations is pretty telling.

RBI/PA RISP - RISP 2 Outs - Bases Loaded
Pujols .446 - .394 - 1.125
Ichiro .206 - .297 - 1.094

If you want to get the run home in those situations, Pujols is the man to take. If you want to get a run home in any other situation, Pujols is the man to take.


Your stats don't make sense to me. Where are the RBI and PA? What matches up with what?

When I read this I think, "I"m not sure which guy I'd rather have up in the given situation, looks like Ichiro":


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Ichiro even slugs better with the bases loaded. He also has a superior OBP with RISP/2 out, come on Tav.
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Postby Havok1517 » Tue May 02, 2006 11:51 pm

he just doesn't like Ichiro at all.
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Postby Apollo » Wed May 03, 2006 1:25 am

Let me help with those stats:

RBI per PA:

Code: Select all
        RISP | RISP 2 Outs | Bases Loaded
Pujols  .446 |     .394    |   1.125
Ichiro  .206 |     .297    |   1.094

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Postby DCNats » Wed May 03, 2006 1:44 am

Havok1517 wrote:A few batting titles and an MVP may help the Ichiro argument. But Ted Williams is still the best hitter of all-time unless Pujols can keep up his pace for another 10 year, which I doubt.


You've said this about 5 times and your argument essentially amounts to "trust me, he is". I agree that he was an incredible hitter and he wasn't shy about placing the-best-hitter-of-all-time moniker on himself, but that doesn't preclude other hitters from being considered.

I agree that Bonds in his prime was the one hitter no pitcher of any era would have wanted to face, but I'd guess that after his career is over, Pujols will be considered the best of all time. Especially because I expect that his accomplishments will include a triple-crown or two and the all-time homerun record.
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Postby nuggets » Wed May 03, 2006 1:48 am

Apollo wrote:Let me help with those stats:

RBI per PA:

Code: Select all
        RISP | RISP 2 Outs | Bases Loaded
Pujols  .446 |     .394    |   1.125
Ichiro  .206 |     .297    |   1.094



Yes I see. With the main qualifier being scoring one runs as most important, I stand by my ambivalence toward choosing Pujols or Ichiro. Tav, does Tango Tiger have likeliness of scoring 1 or 2 runs on a single with the bases loaded w/2 outs?

Does anyone have bases loaded with 2 outs splits?
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Postby RAmst23 » Wed May 03, 2006 4:50 am

I'm floored at how long this argument has been going on. Ichiro is a fine hitter sure, but he's not a great one, even in this era. Power is important when judging pure hitting ability, and I don't care how much Ichiro says he can hit the long ball if he wants to, the simple fact is that he doesn't.

The man is slugging .439 in 3500 ABs, that's no where near helpful. What stats are people looking at here? It's basically a couple guys saying they really like Ichiro, and even though no statistics show that he's a superior hitter, that he really is one of the great ones.

Want to really look at those RISP stats? Pujols has driven in 422 RBIs with RISP, while Ichiro has driven in 256. Using any decent hitting measurement, Pujols is a better hitter. I really like Ichiro, but this argument is a flat out waste of space. Both players have played roughly the same number of games (Ichiro's played more), and yet Pujols outclasses him in every cat except hits, in which Ichiro leads by about 150 in 500 extra ABs.

Ichiro is an all-star, but shouldn't be anywhere near this discussion.
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Postby great gretzky » Wed May 03, 2006 9:22 am

I am not one for longevity as one of the main reasons for greatness in general. More specifically, I haven't squared my opinion on whether it is better to be a supernova unparalleled for 5-10 years, or a "b" talent for 15. But in baseball, longevity factors in, so Pujols can't be considered the best ever, anymore than Kurt Warner can be considered the best QB ever. For those SuperBowl years, his stats were unprecedented. I feel the same way with Pujols. Obviously, the guy will be around for a while--if his age is what they say it is. But its simply too early.

Everyone can rattle off athletes who were awesoem for 2-3 years, then kind of faded. I think baseball, with its legacy deserves more before we try and anoit the next "best hitter ever". Look at what has happened with hoops and the "next jordan"
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