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Postby josebach » Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:37 am

Granted, maybe Madison was a little curt, but everything he said was essentially true. I'm sure this thread escalated to this because when people are on the defensive, they tend to fight back instead of reflect. Take a sec and think about it. Be honest. Is a league that rewards people that are willing to get up at 4:00 AM in the morning a good league? What's really being tested here? Because it's not how good you are at fantasy baseball. That was the entire point.

I do agree, however, that it can be an opinion and not a fact that cycling makes the league a "joke". If every member in the league likes and is willing to play this way, then I don't see anything wrong with it. The problem is, that's usually not the case. In actuality, this might be the easiest way to determine if your league is a joke or not. If there's one or two guys cycling and the other member of the league are complaining about it... it's a fact, YOUR LEAGUE IS A JOKE!!! If, on the other hand, everyone was made aware and agreed before the season started that "cycling" would be used as a viable strategy and that there were no restrictions in place to stop it, than it is definitely an opinion whether the league is a joke or not.

Regardless whether it's a fact or opinion, personally, I would never again play in a league that didn't have some kind of restriction in place to stop pitcher cycling/churning.
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Postby Dark Knight » Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:10 pm

Both sides of the churning argument are acting like babies. My side is right, no my side is right. Why must grown men be so silly and childlike when it comes to fantasy baseball? Fantasy baseball is a game, not your personal love slave ;-) .
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Postby whoseyourdaddy12 » Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:37 pm

madison why do you care. Just let everybody play how they want to, whats your problem? are you going to go around telling everybody weather their league is a joke or not?

and it seems like everybody's Fantasy IQ depends on their post count?? so what if somebody has 5 posts, it doesent mean their a noob, how do you know how long they've been playing? You could have 4,000 posts and have the fantasy expert icon, but that other person with 5 posts could know twice as much as you do.
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Postby bigh0rt » Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:54 pm

Blade wrote:
bigh0rt wrote:
Blade wrote:
LoPan wrote:

Call cycling/me what you want, but the original poster meant no ill will to you or the types of leagues you like to be involved in. You are the one who voiced your opinion and tried to pass it off as holy writ. I'm kinda sad to see posts like this come from people who should be willing to help posters, not lambast them for posting about the type of league they play in.

I for one, didn't know that you could be decapitated for asking about a strategy that seems legal in most leagues.


Around here you can. Most of the high post count guys do not know their elbows from their a-holes when it comes to fantasy baseball, so just ignore them ;-D .


A few notes here:

1) Post count means nothing in terms of fantasy knowledge... some guys have thousands of posts in General Talk, which has nothing to do with fantasy baseball, so there's no real argument to be made here...

2) If you insist on commenting that some of the 'veterans' in the Cafe, or guys with the 'Fantasy Expert' icon "don't know their elbows from their...", then please back that up, because I'd love to see a shred of evidence, other than what would appear to be nothing more than sour grapes.

Now, allow me to go grab my popcorn, and chuckle at the people who try and say churning makes them quality fantasy GMs, the same way they did last season, and will next season and every season down the road, I imagine... ;-7


It's one thing to smart off and joke around with each other around here, but it is another thing to attack and insult a posters league rules and fantasy knowledge when they ask a question, just because you do not like his league rules. Every fantasy player rookie or veteran has to play by their league rules, and different strategies apply to different rules. This does not change the fact of how good or bad a fantasy player is, because a good fantasy player will adapt to their rules, and use the best possible strategy to win.


Yes, however, my point was and still is:

Instead of exploiting your league's lack of what I deem to be a necessary rule, for future use, what you ought to do (again, in my opinion) is institute a rule (be it limiting # of Adds, or # of IP, or moving to weekly lineup changes, or any other number of restrictions), which will in turn, give you a more accurate depiction of who is, in fact, your league's best fantasy GM/Owner. Because right now, all your league shows me is who is quickest to the Waiver Wire each day... which doesn't really prove much to me.

I'll never say that churning isn't actually a strategy in itself when playing fantasy baseball. I will not, however, ever, ever give respect to any fantasy GM who uses it, because what it shows to me is an inability to draft properly, to project further into the future than one day, or to put together a quality team. In fantasy, we're trying to emulate real baseball to a degree, yes? As Madison pointed out, lots of us have been playing fantasy baseball since before the internet came to fruition, myself included, and churning was never a problem then because, well, it was impossible, which is why we have limitations like the ones I outlined above, and restrictions, to prevent such tactics. If it weren't frowned upon basically across the board, do you think there would be restrictions whose sole purposes were to prevent such busch league strategy?
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Postby bigh0rt » Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:57 pm

OneLoveBoomer wrote:Aside from the spit fight going on here...

1. Spot starting is a legitimate strategy. Hop on over to Perlick's thread in Who to Start / Bench. A lot of skill goes into grabbing value off the WW to supplement weekly stats.

2. Spot starting has as many weaknesses as it does strengths. It's about tradeoffs. Pitching junk pitchers will force you to punt a bunch of categories.

3. Spot starting is not unethical. There are a bunch of strategies that exploit the rules and structures of FBB. Spot starting is one of them, and, like the others, comes with its tradeoffs. Pulling out players once you've secured a series of categories is a legitimate strategy. Pitching Papelbon, Dempster (SP,RP), and 5 other relief pitchers is a legitimate strategy. None of them are particularly realistic or "true to the game," but they're options.


One must make the distinction here between spot starting and churning. There's a line, to some finer than others, between the two. Everybody could benefit from a spot start here or there, but when the winner of your league is determined by who can stay up til 4 am when Yahoo advances to the next day and grab 3-4-5 SPs every day to simply rack up pitching counting stats, we've got to look at what those numbers are reflecting, and it's certainly not what a quality fantasy GM you are... again, just my opinion. ;-D
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Postby bigh0rt » Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:02 pm

whoseyourdaddy12 wrote:madison why do you care. Just let everybody play how they want to, whats your problem? are you going to go around telling everybody weather their league is a joke or not?

and it seems like everybody's Fantasy IQ depends on their post count?? so what if somebody has 5 posts, it doesent mean their a noob, how do you know how long they've been playing? You could have 4,000 posts and have the fantasy expert icon, but that other person with 5 posts could know twice as much as you do.


This is a forum for discussing fantasy baseball, is it not? Heck, this debate (despite it being a multiple times a year thing) is the most on-topic thing I've seen here in days, probably longer. Has it gotten a bit heated? Sure, but things tend to, when opinions clash, and there's the big shield that is the internet to protect you.

I've said in a previous post that post-count doesn't amount to much, despite what people think. The 'fantasy expert' icons, though, are given out for a reason, and guys like GoToWarMissAgnes and others have them because they have demonstrated great knowledge of how to play the game; so any disrespect towards them is pretty out of line if you ask me, espeically by somebody who hasn't been here long enough to make such claims. A lot of people seem to be ganging up both of the OP and Madison here, when in reality, it's sides we're battling here, not each other. I have my opinion on churning, which mirrors that of many others here, and the opposition is in the exact same boat. All we can do is state our sides, and convince ourselves that we're right (which I know I am ;-) :-D )

But, let's keep the whole post count debacle and pissing contest out of this, and we may actually have a fun, intelligent debate where people can learn things, and express their views, eh?? :-?
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Postby chadlincoln » Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:19 pm

There is a difference between spot starting and churning. Spot starting is doing research and if you think a guy is going to have a great next few games, you pick him up with the intention of keeping him on your roster longer than 24 hours. Churning is you pick up the best option(s) available, whether he's going to have a great start or not you don't care. You just want the win and the K's.

Churning is not a strategy. It's a cheap way to load up on more IP than your opponent. He can't load up on more AB's than you. Weekly max IP is best.

I've never once in here seen Madison talk about his big post count to make his arguement bigger. It's all the guys with sub 1000 posts that assume what Madison says around here goes. Show me a post please in here where Madison says his post count makes him right.
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Postby whoseyourdaddy12 » Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:30 pm

bigh0rt wrote:
whoseyourdaddy12 wrote:madison why do you care. Just let everybody play how they want to, whats your problem? are you going to go around telling everybody weather their league is a joke or not?

and it seems like everybody's Fantasy IQ depends on their post count?? so what if somebody has 5 posts, it doesent mean their a noob, how do you know how long they've been playing? You could have 4,000 posts and have the fantasy expert icon, but that other person with 5 posts could know twice as much as you do.


This is a forum for discussing fantasy baseball, is it not? Heck, this debate (despite it being a multiple times a year thing) is the most on-topic thing I've seen here in days, probably longer. Has it gotten a bit heated? Sure, but things tend to, when opinions clash, and there's the big shield that is the internet to protect you.

I've said in a previous post that post-count doesn't amount to much, despite what people think. The 'fantasy expert' icons, though, are given out for a reason, and guys like GoToWarMissAgnes and others have them because they have demonstrated great knowledge of how to play the game; so any disrespect towards them is pretty out of line if you ask me, espeically by somebody who hasn't been here long enough to make such claims. A lot of people seem to be ganging up both of the OP and Madison here, when in reality, it's sides we're battling here, not each other. I have my opinion on churning, which mirrors that of many others here, and the opposition is in the exact same boat. All we can do is state our sides, and convince ourselves that we're right (which I know I am ;-) :-D )

But, let's keep the whole post count debacle and pissing contest out of this, and we may actually have a fun, intelligent debate where people can learn things, and express their views, eh?? :-?


1st paragraph - i agree, your right 100%. But that still doesent give mad the right to go and insult anybody.

2nd paragraph - i never disrespected anybody with the fantasy expert icon, especially gotowar, some of his posts have really helped me out. But what makes me mad the most and hate about the cafe most is when people do make conclusions out of somebody's grand total of 15 posts. This post (in this thread) really pisses me off

chadlincoln wrote:
Randy Watson wrote:Thanks for the profound insight from the ivory tower oh wise one. Now get back on your high horse and ride off into the sunset please.
You must be a rookie who has no clue what you're doing. You must not have any drafting skills that you have to cycle SP's because you have no clue how to draft good SP's. That's ok. Hang around the cafe a while and you'll learn. One day you'll get a clue.

P.S. Before you go off on Madison, maybe check who you're talking to rookie. On his high horse? Maybe his league involves knowledge of the game of baseball, not loopholes in your fantasy league.


What gives you, chadlincoln, the right to say that? How do you know how long hes been playing for? He could have more expierence then you. Yes, he made a dumb comment but he was insulted, so it gives you no right. You could be at the same level as him, as the only icon you have is the mock drafter thing or whatever (but same here, so we could all be on the same level)
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Postby BritSox » Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:38 pm

Chadlincoln's not making that comment based on his post count, it's based on the fact that he's advocating a strategy that is bush league and beloved of rookies who somehow think they're really smart by getting up at 4 every morning to exploit a loophole.

As Hort wants a fun, intelligent debate, how about someone starts by telling me what is in the least bit fun, or requires any intelligence, about pitcher churning?
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Postby bigh0rt » Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:45 pm

BritSox wrote:Chadlincoln's not making that comment based on his post count, it's based on the fact that he's advocating a strategy that is bush league and beloved of rookies who somehow think they're really smart by getting up at 4 every morning to exploit a loophole.

As Hort wants a fun, intelligent debate, how about someone starts by telling me what is in the least bit fun, or requires any intelligence, about pitcher churning?


Well, I hope I'm not the only one, but I've been asking this question for the past 3 pages now B-)
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