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J.Upton or B.Butler

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Postby eazyb81 » Sun Apr 16, 2006 5:40 pm

hybrid wrote:How does being a 5-tool/cat not matter in fantasy? Sure it does, having someone that can help in all areas is very useful especially when they can steal 30-40 bases.

Sure it can be arguable about avg/power right now, but I still think Upton has the edge. I also think a good amount of people read to much in his stats last year at High A, a lot like Wood.


5 tool ability is not important in fantasy, as long as you don't count defensive stats in your fantasy league. Not sure why you would even argue that point. I already stated Upton would have the definite edge on the basepaths.

So you discount what Butler did last year, but then you also say that the fact Upton has proved nothing in the minors has no bearing on his value as a prospect. Doesn't make much sense to me.
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Postby raiders_umpire » Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:23 pm

eazyb81 wrote:
raiders_umpire wrote:I would take Upton by a pretty nice margin even with Upton ending up in the outfield. Butler may very well end up at DH and though his bat may make him worth a lot, just not having a position at all will definitely hurt him a bit. Upton will also more then likely help you in 5 cats where as Butler may only help you in 3.


How will being a DH hurt Butler's fantasy value? That doesn't make much sense.

You're right that Upton will have across the board value as a possible 5 cat guy, but I don't think he will necessarily offer the kind of power production that Butler will provide, and I think that may be what separates them.




Having no position to play at besides UT hurts you quite a bit. I saw Hafner fall to the 4th round in lots of drafts this year, for the simple reason that he had to be put at your UT spot. Hafner should have been easily a 2nd round pick in drafts this year, but the fact of no position hurt him big time.
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Postby hybrid » Sun Apr 16, 2006 9:50 pm

eazyb81 wrote:5 tool ability is not important in fantasy, as long as you don't count defensive stats in your fantasy league. Not sure why you would even argue that point. I already stated Upton would have the definite edge on the basepaths.

So you discount what Butler did last year, but then you also say that the fact Upton has proved nothing in the minors has no bearing on his value as a prospect. Doesn't make much sense to me.


Like I pointed out it does have an impact due to SB's. It's one in the same, if you agree he has the edge in SB's, then you agree 5-tool/cat helps out players value.

I never discounted his year, I said people tend to overate it just like they do w/ Wood. It's an extreme hitters league and people never tend to take that into account. Your getting things confused as far as prospect rating goes. Does the numbers a prospect put up matter, sure it does ... it's just not the end all in rating a prospect.
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Postby eazyb81 » Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:17 pm

hybrid wrote:
eazyb81 wrote:5 tool ability is not important in fantasy, as long as you don't count defensive stats in your fantasy league. Not sure why you would even argue that point. I already stated Upton would have the definite edge on the basepaths.

So you discount what Butler did last year, but then you also say that the fact Upton has proved nothing in the minors has no bearing on his value as a prospect. Doesn't make much sense to me.


Like I pointed out it does have an impact due to SB's. It's one in the same, if you agree he has the edge in SB's, then you agree 5-tool/cat helps out players value.

I never discounted his year, I said people tend to overate it just like they do w/ Wood. It's an extreme hitters league and people never tend to take that into account. Your getting things confused as far as prospect rating goes. Does the numbers a prospect put up matter, sure it does ... it's just not the end all in rating a prospect.


Yes, speed does help you on the basepaths. However, your point about Upton being a 5 tool player is almost pointless. Two of the 5 tools are nice to have in reality but are worthless when analyzing fantasy value (defensive ability and arm strength). I would certainly agree that Upton has the definitive edge in speed, but I would say that they have a good chance at being equal in average and I would also assume that Butler has the edge in power.

Never said stats were the end all be all, but they certainly can't be ignored either. It's not like Butler came out of nowhere Chris Shelton style, he was a 1st round pick and came into the minors with a reputation for being a stud with the bat. He has done nothing to disprove that, if anything he has exceeded expectations.
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Postby killercars » Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:09 pm

wow... is it that confusing that one guys is referring to 5 tool (defense/arm included), and the other guy is talking 5 category (fantasy categories... r/hr/rbi/sb/avg)

maybe an example would help...

in h2h... maybe you go manny over beltran (maximizing his power and conceeding sb's, but) in roto.. you gotta go beltran (at least of 2004 ;-) )because of his 5 CATEGORY STRENGTHS...

same with Upton here... he's better all around... he helps you in EVERY FANTASY CATEGORY...

if you can get a guy who in his prime goes...
100/30/100/30/.300
it's better than a guy who goes...
100/40/110/0/.300

not to say those are projections per se, but that a 5 "category" guy is way more valuable in MOST leagues...

jhonny.
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Postby Dawgpound 1613 » Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:45 pm

I would take Upton over Butler every day and twice on Sunday.

And yes, a 5 tool player in scouting parlance doesn't matter as much as long as a player can at least play passable defense (though great defense will get him to the majors faster - BJ Upton anyone). A 5 tool player in fantasy parlance does. Butler isn't in either, Upton is in both.
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