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Postby d » Thu Jul 10, 2003 12:38 am

Thanks Hootie, I actually think RC is quite accurate too and I know that it isn't something like rbi and runs. I'm no expert with scouting and those measurements, so please correct me if I'm wrong.
Since sacrifice flies, sacrifice hits and # of at-bats are some of the factors in the Runs Created formula. So, I guess the position that a player bats in the order would still affect the result.
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Postby homerunhitter » Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:41 am

In real baseball Ichiro is not overrated. You damn Yankee fans probably don't even watch him play. If forget about fantasy numbers and study Ichiro's role on the Mariners then you will know why they've won the most games in MLB since Ichiro joined them in 2001.

He is the ultimate team player. He doesn't try to hit homeruns and never takes free passes. One telling stat is the number of hits he's compiled. So far he's leading both leagues with 130 hits and is 2nd in batting average. Melvin Mora, who leads the AL in avg, only has 93 hits.

Another stat that goes overlooked is his batting avg w/ RISP, which is .389 since he started in 2001.

Sure he may not have the usual fantasy numbers, but if your a true fan of the actual game of baseball, you will not find a better right fielder anywhere. Batting average, speed, and defense can help a team more than homeruns, strikeouts, and injuries.
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Postby blankman » Thu Jul 10, 2003 10:09 am

homerunhitter wrote:In real baseball Ichiro is not overrated. You damn Yankee fans probably don't even watch him play.

He is the ultimate team player. He doesn't try to hit homeruns and never takes free passes. One telling stat is the number of hits he's compiled. So far he's leading both leagues with 130 hits and is 2nd in batting average. Melvin Mora, who leads the AL in avg, only has 93 hits.

Another stat that goes overlooked is his batting avg w/ RISP, which is .389 since he started in 2001.

Sure he may not have the usual fantasy numbers, but if your a true fan of the actual game of baseball, you will not find a better right fielder anywhere. Batting average, speed, and defense can help a team more than homeruns, strikeouts, and injuries.

So now only Yankee fans think he's overrated? I don't think so.

You say "he never takes free passes"- how is that possibly a good thing? I'd much rather see my leadoff hitter take a lot of pitches i.e. draw a walk than ground out on the first or second pitch.

As Joe Morgan says, in the article d found, leadoff hitters are supposed to work the pitcher; they are suppossed to take as many pitches as they can, so the team can see how the pitcher's stuff is working, which is very important. Ichiro is among the worst players in the league in that category.

Yes, he has a ton of hits. But whats his on-base percentage? How many ground-outs does he make?

I am aware of his high BA w/ RISP and I have taken that into account when I say he is still overrated.

Again, no one is saying that he's not good. Those who say that he is overrated are saying that many people think that he's better than he is- just like Derek Jeter, who I'll admit is also overrated, since many think is fielding is exceptional, while it has been proven that he is an average fielder at best.

This statement is perfect evidence that he's overrated: "you will not find a better right fielder anywhere." Yes you will: Sheffield, Sosa(if he turns it around) and Vlad. I'd rather have a sometimes injured Vlad than Ichiro b/c Vlad can have a greater effect on the game.(almost as many hits, more walks, better OBP, plus the added bonus of the homers; Vlad even had a better avg than Ichiro last yr).

Once again, Ichiro does not suck, he's a great player, just not as greay as a lot of people think he is.
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Postby blankman » Thu Jul 10, 2003 10:17 am

Not that I think about it, ignore my previous post, don't bother arguing with it, because arguing with it does not address the issue of whether he is overrated.

There is no point in arguing the stats. Having good stats, doesn't make someone not overrated, it actually tends to make them overrated (tends doesn't mean always). The lone arguement that he is overrated is in the definition of overrated. The arguement of being overrated lies in other people's perception of the player, not the player's ability.

Everyone arguing that he isn't overrated has not yet actually addressed the question. They have only argued that Ichiro is good, which he unmistakably is. The arguement is whether many people think he's better than he actually is.

This is what you can try to argue with b/c it is what the arguement is supposed to be about (being overrated): Ichiro is a great player, just not as great as many think he is.
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Postby flloyd » Thu Jul 10, 2003 11:12 am

blankman, I'm with you on this one. I also think that Ichiro is overrated by baseball fans and critics. He is good but not as great as others and he doesn't do some of the things that a leadoff hitter should do as has been mentioned previosly.
For a good definition of what it means to be overrated people should read ESPNs article on their definition of overrated. It really is an interesting read.
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Postby blankman » Thu Jul 10, 2003 11:31 am

flloyd wrote:blankman, I'm with you on this one. I also think that Ichiro is overrated by baseball fans and critics. He is good but not as great as others and he doesn't do some of the things that a leadoff hitter should do as has been mentioned previosly.
For a good definition of what it means to be overrated people should read ESPNs article on their definition of overrated. It really is an interesting read.


Thanks for the vote of confidence ;-D . I've refered to the ESPN Page 2 article many times, but I've been too lazy to get a link for everyone. Its nice to see someone that actually knows what I'm arguing about. ;-D
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Postby HOOTIE » Thu Jul 10, 2003 11:07 pm

d wrote:Thanks Hootie, I actually think RC is quite accurate too and I know that it isn't something like rbi and runs. I'm no expert with scouting and those measurements, so please correct me if I'm wrong.
Since sacrifice flies, sacrifice hits and # of at-bats are some of the factors in the Runs Created formula. So, I guess the position that a player bats in the order would still affect the result.



The simple formula for runs created is

Hits plus Walks
Times Total Bases
Divided by (At bats plus walks)

This formula will calculate a teams actual runs scored to within 5%, nearly all the time. Sac flies are non official abs. Sac flies account for only 1% of total outs made, a very small impact even if it was used in any evaluation. The # of abs will effect total runs created, but not runs created per 27 outs.
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Postby HOOTIE » Thu Jul 10, 2003 11:22 pm

[quote=]In real baseball Ichiro is not overrated.

He is the ultimate team player. He doesn't try to hit homeruns and never takes free passes.

Sure he may not have the usual fantasy numbers, but if your a true fan of the actual game of baseball, you will not find a better right fielder anywhere. [/quote]

Fantasy has nothing to do with ops+, runs created, win shares, which are used in real life evaluation. Ichiros very good. I think hes overrated because he stole a mvp award. Btw, how does not walking make you a team player?
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Postby homerunhitter » Thu Jul 10, 2003 11:45 pm

I like how you conveniently ignored the fact that since Ichiro has joined the Mariners they have won the most games in baseball. Plus I don't think you East Coasters actually watch Ichiro play.

He may not draw enough walks, but I guarantee he sees several pitches per at bat. If Ichiro doesn't like a particular pitch, he'll foul it off. And he'll continue to foul off pitches he doesn't like, until he walks, rips one up the middle, or beats out a routine grounder to 2nd. I honestly feel sorry for you guys who are missing Ichiro play. Do yourself a favor and quit quoting what the so called "experts" say and watch him play. Then you'll see what I'm talking about.
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Postby HOOTIE » Fri Jul 11, 2003 12:22 am

homerunhitter wrote:I like how you conveniently ignored the fact that since Ichiro has joined the Mariners they have won the most games in baseball. Plus I don't think you East Coasters actually watch Ichiro play. I honestly feel sorry for you guys who are missing Ichiro play. Do yourself a favor and quit quoting what the so called "experts" say and watch him play. Then you'll see what I'm talking about.


You are doing quite a bit of ASSUMING of people. Not that it matters, but i happen to be near Seattle, and see Ichiro quite often. I didnt ignore anything on Seattle having most wins. Ichiro helped no doubt, but did you know Seattle lead bb in era in 01? There are many reasons for Seattles success. I think you are letting Ichiros exciting style of play, impede your judgement of him.
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