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ICHIRO OVERRATED (LCBOY)

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Postby blankman » Wed Jul 09, 2003 3:11 pm

flloyd wrote:Well as long as we are going to criticize other's grammar and spelling; sentences begin with uppercase letters, not lowercase. And what the hell does this mean?
blankman wrote: please read all little more carefully next time.


*a little more carefully. Obviously everyone knows that sentences begin with uppercase letters. It is only laziness that keeps me from using caps at the beginning of sentences. :-D Some people have difficulty with verb tenses, so I fixed it. Anyway, you can thank me for ignoring your rudeness and responding to your trade post. your welcome
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Postby 9er Fan » Wed Jul 09, 2003 4:40 pm

Ichiro is a great fielder with a gun in right and he's a menace on the basepaths. These two strengths are not captured in OPS. I think he's a top-10 position player, but not a top-5. If he walked more, and got the OBP over .400, he'd probably merit top-5 consideration.

In the post-season, where low-scoring games reign supreme, defense, speed, and ability to manufacture runs become even more important.
Last edited by 9er Fan on Wed Jul 09, 2003 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sevillano » Wed Jul 09, 2003 5:13 pm

Back to that article on Matsui...anyone else think it was piss poor? Besides the opening idea not making any sense, it reads like ESPN commissioned a high schooler to write it. I do agree that Matsui probably shouldn't be an all-star though.
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Postby blankman » Wed Jul 09, 2003 6:06 pm

Sevillano wrote:Back to that article on Matsui...anyone else think it was piss poor? Besides the opening idea not making any sense, it reads like ESPN commissioned a high schooler to write it. I do agree that Matsui probably shouldn't be an all-star though.


Yes, I also thought it was terribly written, surely not worthy of publication at ESPN.com.
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Postby timkell » Wed Jul 09, 2003 6:55 pm

Hey d, say what you want about Ichiro, but
take a lot of pitches


is definitely not true. In his rookie "MVP" year, he took less pitches per at bat than anyone else in the American league. That's bad for a lead off hitter.

One plus for a leadoff hitter is to give the other guys a chance to see a lot of pitches. Most managers seem to ignore this, and other plusses, and just put the fast guy at lead off.

Here's an article about Ichiro being overrated. It's old, but on topic:
http://slate.msn.com/id/114499/
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Postby blankman » Wed Jul 09, 2003 7:39 pm

timkell wrote:Here's an article about Ichiro being overrated. It's old, but on topic:
http://slate.msn.com/id/114499/


Pretty good not great, but good article ;-D , even though its old. Virtually everything about Ichiro is the same since his rookie year, though I feel that his base stealing has declined a little bit.
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Postby tjhksig » Wed Jul 09, 2003 7:54 pm

Blankman, your argument about Ichiro makes no sense.

When people are asked about who the best player is, they don't say Ichiro, they say Bonds, Sosa, etc.; so how does your Nolan Ryan argument apply about overrated? It doesn't. Ichiro has made any milestones (no-hitters), or break HR records (like Ryan's K's).

Also, you say he's not in ESPN's article b/c they'd never say anything bad about him. That's just stupid to think the entire ESPN staff loves Ichiro and would thus never say a bad word about him. Admit you just hate him, wish he was a Yankee, or come up w/ some good evidence.

He is a leadoff hitter, not a cleanup hitter, so your comparisons using those stats are flawed.
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Postby blankman » Wed Jul 09, 2003 8:20 pm

I wouldn't say that I hate him; I hate the undeserving attention and praise he gets. And no, I certainly don't wish he was a Yankee. There are so many more OFers I'd rather have. Probably at least 15- thats why he's overrated- many people mention him as an elite OF, top-5 when he is clearly not. Thats why he's overrated- he's not as good as many think he is.

I don't know how many times I've had to say this but OVERRATED DOES NOT EQUAL NOT GOOD and I have never said that he's not good, only that he isn't as good as many believe. (is this really that hard to understand)

I gone around in this arguement so many times and with so many different people, and I've had enough. Claim whatever unfounded victory you want; I'm done with this.

As for the stats comparisions- you're the one who's wrong. I haven't made ANY stat comparisons between Ichiro and the rest of MLB. I have merely argued generally and not stat-specific with numbers and research done. Please get your facts straight before you accuse me of doing something I haven't.

The ESPN thing that you're talking about makes no sense. No negative word to my knowledge has ever been said by ESPN about Ichiro, so obviously they like him.

I'll ask you guys this, before you go and try to prove that Ichiro is good, so he can't be overrated, read the 2nd paragraph again and realize that overrated does not mean not good.
Last edited by blankman on Wed Jul 09, 2003 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby d » Wed Jul 09, 2003 10:09 pm

Thanks for the correction Timkell.

I read this espn article long ago about leadoff: http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/morgan_joe/1369981.html

Morgan wrote:While Ichiro does his job to get on base, he doesn't allow his teammates to see pitches.
At the same time, no leadoff hitter is better than Ichiro when there is a runner in scoring position. He always tries to get a hit and drive in the run. Past leadoff hitters drove in fewer runs because they thought their primary job was to get on base.


I thought that he is not clutch but takes lots of pitches, looks like I remember it as the other way around. :*)
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Postby HOOTIE » Thu Jul 10, 2003 12:10 am

d wrote:I think it is quite unfair to compare offensive stats with a leadoff guy and a cleanup hitter. Leadoff hitter usually had no one but the # 8,9 to knock in, where the cleanup guys have all the rbi and scoring opportunities.


Its not unfair at all. The job of EVERY hitter is to create runs. You are thinking of TEAM dependent stats like runs and rbis. Total runs created, runs created per 27, are a very accurate way of measuring a hitters success.
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