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ICHIRO OVERRATED (LCBOY)

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ICHIRO OVERRATED (LCBOY)

Postby tal1286 » Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:20 am

Here's what you said:
Secondly, I do NOT hate Ichiro. He is fun to watch, always. I just believe as a an offensive force he is not in the same level of Bonds, Pujols, Edmonds, Ramirez, Giambi. OPS is not "one stat" it is a combination of other stats. It takes into account power and an ability to get on base. I am not familiar with Sarigan's stats. Can you post a link to his info?

But let's look at other stats

run created per 27 outs:

Pujols 12.53
Bonds 11.32
Sheffield 9.34
Ramirez 8.41
Ichiro 7.47
Matsui 6.05

The game today is a power game. Have you noticed that most of the great power hitters of today draw a huge number of walks? Combining power and walks generates a large numbers of runs. Ichiro doesn't have power and he doesn't draw a lot of walks so how can he possibly generate as many runs as the power htters? No amount of great defense can make up for the difference in power and drawing walks. That doesn't mean Ichiro is not a great player but there are other hitters better than him. Is that an insult to Ichiro? Of course not!! He is fun to watch!



I understand exactly what you are saying and while I have Ichiro on my team I have overrated/underrated questions with myself about him all the time. My question is this, in this post you mention runs produced per 27 outs. Ichiro ranks fifth on this list. However, the 4 players above him are probably consensus picks to be 4 of the best hitters this year. I'd be interested to see who else is above him in this category. If there are a large number of players then its another reason why he is overrated but if you have found a stat where only 4 great hitters rank above him then how can you say this helps your case for his being overrated. Anyone else have opinions on whether or not ichiro is overrated?
Image

Leyland said, "We thought we were getting a hell of a player, but Neifi simply did not perform well."

really?
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Postby blankman » Wed Jul 09, 2003 10:18 am

I don't want to debate, because, quite frankly, I've done it too many times already. But, to answer the question: Ichiro is overrated. He fits the definition of overrated- undoubtably a great player, but not as good as many believe he is.

ESPN Page 2 has a couple great articles on what makes an athlete overrated, for example Nolan Ryan; yes he was a great pitcher, but when you ask many people who the greatest pitcher of all time is, they say Nolan Ryan most likely because of the strikeouts and no-hitters. He is clearly not the best pitcher of all-time as ESPN points out (2 of his contemporaries Carlton and Seaver were better pitchers). So, yes Ryan was a great pitcher, but not as good as many believe he was.

Ichiro perfectly fits that definition. You may ask why Ichiro isn't included in ESPN's list of overrated athletes. The answer, quite simply is that they are in love with Ichiro and the fact that he's a Japanese player in the US; and to my knowledge, they have NEVER said anything bad about him.
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Postby LCBOY » Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:30 pm

tal1286,

Here are the rankinngs based on RC per 27 outs as of 7/9/03:

Barry Bonds #1
Albert Pujols #2
Gary Sheffield #5
Manny Ramirez #15
Ichiro #21
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Postby flloyd » Wed Jul 09, 2003 1:03 pm

blankman wrote:Ichiro perfectly fits that definition. You may ask why Ichiro isn't included in ESPN's list of overrated athletes. The answer, quite simply is that they are in love with Ichiro and the fact that he's a Japanese player in the US; and to my knowledge, they have NEVER said anything bad about him.


Yeah, ESPN never criticize Japanese players.
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Postby blankman » Wed Jul 09, 2003 1:47 pm

flloyd- notice I say they've never said anything bad about him- Ichiro. I said that they like that he's Japanese not everyone who is Japanese. please read all little more carefully next time.

Just FYI- the correct form of the verb "to criticize" would be criticizes because ESPN is singular.

I can see where the writer of that article is coming from, but he makes a statement early on, but gives no evidence to back it up:

"It's not enough, apparently, for the New York Yankees to buy championships. Now, they're intent on buying All-Star berths, too."

Ok sure, he can talk about the "buying" myth of the World Series, but what evidence is there that the Yankees, as he says, wanted to buy an All-Star berth? His statement makes no sense whatsoever. The reason Matsui is an All-Star is that the Japanese voted for him, many times, not that the Yankees somehow bought him a berth; how could they have anyway? Thats the last time I read an opinion-based article written by Sean McAdam.
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Postby thundakat82 » Wed Jul 09, 2003 1:58 pm

Ichiro hit a homer last night :-D ......

Oh..and Matsui picked as an All-Star??? Now that's being overrated :-P
GO GO GO!!!! GOOOOOOO MARINERS!!!!!
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Postby blankman » Wed Jul 09, 2003 2:00 pm

thundakat82 wrote:Oh..and Matsui picked as an All-Star??? Now that's being overrated :-P


Yes, Matsui is overrated in Japan. I think most Americans realize that he's not amazing, but this has nothing to do with the fact that Ichiro is overrated.
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Postby flloyd » Wed Jul 09, 2003 2:06 pm

Well as long as we are going to criticize other's grammar and spelling; sentences begin with uppercase letters, not lowercase. And what the hell does this mean?
blankman wrote: please read all little more carefully next time.
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Postby Danks81 » Wed Jul 09, 2003 2:39 pm

ZING!!!
"I tried to hit a 1,000-foot homer. I went down on the ground and wasn't the same after that."
- Henry Rodriguez
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Postby d » Wed Jul 09, 2003 2:53 pm

I think it is quite unfair to compare offensive stats with a leadoff guy and a cleanup hitter. Leadoff hitter usually had no one but the # 8,9 to knock in, where the cleanup guys have all the rbi and scoring opportunities.

However, I'd take a powerful bat (all those top tier OF in the game) over a leadoff guy with speed anytime. That's why they are in the core of a lineup.

Anyway, Ichiro is one of the best leadoff hitter in the game if not the best. He has tremendous speed, defence and take a lot of pitches. Of cuz he also helps in selling MLB to Japan.

No doubt Ichiro is a hell of talent and he is one of the best leadoff in the game. But he is overrated if he is said to be among the best OF (Vlad, Sosa, Bonds etc.) in the game. [/b]
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