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Poll ended at Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:48 pm

Havok1517
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AT
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Total votes : 10

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Postby giants! » Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:58 pm

DO NOT POST IN THIS THREAD IF YOU ARE NOT AMAZINZ AND POKERPLAYA

Question: The Hall of Fame, a showcase for the greatest players of all time. There are some questionable inductions and some questionable snubs.
If you were presented with an oppurtunity to remove one player from the hall and replace him with one person out of the hall (person has to have retired more than 5 years ago), who would those players be?

Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson are not possible answers and please leave hall of fame members to players, not contributors or managers
Last edited by giants! on Sun Mar 26, 2006 6:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby giants! » Fri Mar 24, 2006 4:06 pm

AT taking over for Pokerplaya
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Postby AT » Fri Mar 24, 2006 4:32 pm

I'm taking out Bill Mazeroski and putting Goose Gossage in.

On Mazeroski:

I'm of the understanding that he got in because the Veterans committee liked him so they put him in. He's a career .260 hitter. Career .299 on base. Double Digit homers 6 of 17 years. 19 was most he ever hit. Never hit higher than .283. 27 Career SBs. 294 Career Doubles over 17 years. 7 Time All Star, 8 time Gold Glover. He never led the league in anything.

Here are the similar batters on baseball-reference.
Frank White (911)
Leo Cardenas (870)
Bill Russell (869)
Chris Speier (869)
Jim Fregosi (868)
Tony Taylor (865)
Phil Garner (855)
Terry Pendleton (852)
Garry Templeton (851)
Royce Clayton (848)

Bill Russell was a basketball player. Garry Templeton is the answer to a switch hitter trivia question. Fregosi is a lousy manager. So is Phil Garner. And Royce Clayton sucks. I found that list funny.

The guy hit one of the most famous homeruns in major league history. Bobby Thomson doesn't belong in the HOF. Neither does Mazeroski.

I should go off on Mattingly here but I'll lose that battle ;-) . I'll fight my war with Goose.

On Gossage:

9-Time All Star.
Top 5 in Saves 8 times. Leader 3 times.
22 Seasons.
1809 IP, 1502 K's.
124-107 Career Record.
3.78 Career ERA
310 Career Saves.

Prime years: 1977 - 1985
1977: 11-9 1.62 ERA 133 IP 151 K 26 Saves
1978: 10-11 2.01 ERA 134.3 IP 122 K 27 Saves
1979: 5-3 2.62 ERA 58.3 IP 41 K 18 Saves
1980: 6-2 2.27 ERA 99 IP 103 K 33 Saves
1981: 3-2 0.77 ERA 46.7 IP 48 K 20 Saves
1982: 4-5 2.23 ERA 93 IP 102 K 30 Saves
1983: 13-5 2.27 ERA 87.3 IP 90 K 22 Saves
1984: 10-6 2.90 ERA 102.3 IP 84 K 25 Saves
1985: 5-3 1.82 ERA 79 IP 52 K 26 Saves

2 Time World Champion with NYY.
3rd in AL MVP 1980.
9th in AL MVP 1981.
13th in '78 AL and '84 NL MVP.

He was a big part of some of the best teams in the league in the late 1970's. He helped revolutionize the back end of the bullpen and the closer position. He was a dominant player in his era and among the best at his position for a decade plus.

The Goose should be in the HOF.

There's my case.
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Postby giants! » Fri Mar 24, 2006 6:15 pm

Anyone can take over Amazins spot
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Postby Havok1517 » Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:21 pm

I’m taking Phil Rizzuto out and putting in Jim Rice.

First, let me start off by saying that I steered away from naming a player from the dead ball era because of the difficulty of comparing them to more recent players. Secondly, let me iterate that I have no particular allegiance to either the Boston Red Sox or the New York Yankees, so let us get that out of the way. This allows me to state, without prejudice and team blinders, that without hesitation the weakest and most undeserving player in the Hall of Fame is Phil Rizzuto. Going by numbers I found that there are literally dozens of players that are far more deserving of Hall of Fame induction than Phil Rizzuto (even Bill Mazeroski had a better bat and glove).

A Quick Dozen for fun:
Jim Rice
Jim Kaat
Bert Blyleven
Steve Garvey
Andre Dawson
Albert Belle
Ron Santo
Maury Willis
Don Mattingly
Jack Morris
Dave Concepcion
Goose Goosage


Phil Rizzuto:

Phil Rizzuto, Scooter, was a member of the 7 World Championship Yankee teams that consisted of fantastic players like DiMaggio, Mantle, Ford, Berra, etc. you get the point. He played for 13 (5X All-Star) seasons and retired in 1956. But waited 33 years before being deemed worthy a Hall of Famer by the veteran’s committee, wonder why? I’ll get to that. He retired with a minuscule .273 lifetime batting average (in 1954 he hit in an abysmal .195BA and even more repulsive 15RBI in 127 games!), hit a horrible 562 career RBIs, had a lifetime .355SLG%, and a laughable .706 career OPS. Rizzuto did win the 1950 MVP in a career year while hitting 7 HR and batting .324. He hit 38 career homeruns (Bill Mazeroski’s career numbers are far better he also hit 138 career homeruns) and ranks the lowest or near lowest in every offensive category among current Hall of Famers by a wide margin!!! Also, unlike most light hitting infielders inducted, Rizzuto never won a gold glove!!! Why is Phil Rizzuto in the Hall of Fame??? Well, the answer is he shouldn’t be and was soley because of the great teams he played for in New York.

Baseball-Reference.com lists these players as similar players to Rizzuto…
1. Art Fletcher (917)
2. Billy Rogell (915)
3. Lonny Frey (910)
4. Claude Ritchey (909)
5. Billy Jurges (908)
6. Marty Marion (904)
7. Lyn Lary (904)
8. Jose Offerman (904)
9. Hughie Critz (904)
10. Doggie Miller (904)

Umm, any of those guys seem even close to Hall of Fame Worthy? No! While players like Terry Pendelton, Phil Garner, and Royce Clayton aren’t anywhere near Hall of Fame caliber players, I’d much rather take them over the similar players listed close to Rizzuto.

Jim Rice:
All America League (and some National League) pitchers that pitched in the 80’s knew his name and probably some still have nightmares about the feared Boston Red Sox left fielder. Rice played his entire 16 year career in Boston; Rice averaged a .298BA, 30HR, 113 RBIs, 502SLG% over his career. He had four 200 hit seasons, hit over .300 seven times, had 382 career HR, eight 100 RBI seasons (1451 total) and is the only player to get 200 hits and hit 35HR in 3 consecutive years. Rice four times led the league in total bases and is the only AL player since 1937 to have over 400 bases in one season. He also won 2 Silver Slugger awards and was 6 times in the top 5 in MVP voting, winning it in 1978. Rice was an underrated defender and much of the criticism about his defensive ability was developed later on in his career when injuries prevented him from excelling like he had later in his career, forcing him to DH. He accumulated a .980 outfield fielding percentage, 3103 PO, 137 Assists, and only 66 career errors (far less than contemporary Winfield). Rice also hit .333 in the World Series with the Mets in ’86. The writers don’t like him, fine, but his prestige should be judged on what he produced and what respect he got from his adversaries, the greatest. He was without question the most feared hitter in the AL for a time span over a decade (’75-’86) and should, without doubt, be inducted into the Cooperstown.

Baseball-Reference.com lists these players as similar players to…

1. Orlando Cepeda (911) *
2. Andres Galarraga (893)
3. Ellis Burks (882)
4. Duke Snider (880) *
5. Joe Carter (864)
6. Dave Parker (856)
7. Billy Williams (854) *
8. Luis Gonzalez (847)
9. Willie Stargell (843) *
10. Gary Sheffield (839)

Of these listed, 4 are already in the Hall of Fame (Cepeda, Snider, Williams, & Stargell) with Sheffield, Carter, & Parker all close to Hall worthy themselves. I believe Rice deserves nothing less than to be with his peers of equal importance and dominance.


This was fun, thanks.
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Postby giants! » Sun Mar 26, 2006 6:47 pm

Closed I guess
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Postby Tavish » Sun Mar 26, 2006 6:59 pm

Also, unlike most light hitting infielders inducted, Rizzuto never won a gold glove!!!


The AL Gold Glove was first awarded in 1957. Rizzuto retired in 1956.
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Postby Havok1517 » Sun Mar 26, 2006 7:01 pm

Well, he never led the league in fielding %, Sorry.
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Postby Havok1517 » Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:24 am

Giants, would you please change the heading on this post to some type of Debate: ?
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Postby AT » Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:58 am

Tavish wrote:
Also, unlike most light hitting infielders inducted, Rizzuto never won a gold glove!!!


The AL Gold Glove was first awarded in 1957. Rizzuto retired in 1956.


lol. How dare you take shots at Scooter... That hurts a little. :~(

I'm j/k. You made a couple good arguments. I can't argue much against Jim Rice belonging in the HOF, but I could probably make a similar argument for Mattingly about dominance over a short period of time. Regardless...

"One of the best shortstops in the AL in his time, he led three times each in double plays and total chances per game, twice each in fielding and putouts, and once in assists." - BaseballLibrary.com

The argument about how Rizzuto never won a gold glove is pretty bad dude. Kind of made me laugh. Obviously he couldn't have because the award wasn't given out yet, but you should know just based on general baseball knowledge that Scooter was a sick defensive SS... Innocent mistake. Just like I won't argue that Mazeroski was an outstanding 2B. One of the best of all time.

And Rizzuto had a 13 point higher Career BA with 500 less games than Mazeroski. Not to mention Rizzuto was mostly a bunter, not a power hitter. One of the best bunters ever in fact.

This was fun. GG's Havok.
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