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Statheads or Do You Know The Game? (Question For All)

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Postby ondeckb » Mon Jul 07, 2003 7:49 pm

To LCBOY.....best post I've read in ages...... ;-D
"Ninety feet between bases is the closest man has ever come to perfection"
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Postby pdap100281 » Mon Jul 07, 2003 8:30 pm

LCBOY wrote:
ICHIRO OVERATTED? YOU ARE CRAZY. THE GUY CAN HIT ANY PITCH AT ANY COUNT TO ANY PART OF THE BALLPARK INCLUDING OVER THE FENCE. THE GUY IS CAPABLE OF 30+ HOMERS A YEAR! ALSO HE POSTED THE HIGHEST AVERAGE WITH RUNNERS IN SCORING POSITION OF ALL TIME! AND HOW MANY GUYS ARE RUNNING OUT INFIELD SINGLES, STEALING 2ND AND THEN 3RD IN TODAYS GAME??? AND HOW MANY OF THEM HAVE THE STRONGEST AND MOST ACCURATE ARM IN THE GAME!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? MAYBE A GUY LIKE VLADE CAN THROW FARTHER BUT NO ONE COMBINES BOTH ARM STRENGTH AND ACCURACY AT A HIGHER LEVEL THAN ICHIRO, NOT TO MENTION HIS OFFENSIVE SKILLS.


OK, let's look at "offensive skills". Right now Ichiro is batting .349/.388/.467. The .349 BA is great, his OBP is mearly good. A leadoff hitter should ideally have an OBP over .400. His .467 SLG% is low for a corner outfielder. If he is capable of hitting 30 HRs a year then why doesn't he? On what EVIDENCE did you base this assertion? His career high in Japan is only 27. His career OPS is only .832. That is very low. An All-Star Outfielder should have a much higher OPS.

Here are the starting six outfielders with their OPS, for the All-Star game


Barry Bonds 1162
Albert Pujols 1138
Gary Sheffield 1126
Manny Ramirez 1003
Ichiro Suzuki 855
Hideki Matsui 838

Now, what is wrong with this picture?

He does play great defense and and have a great arm. His 2001 MPV was a mistake. Jiambi should have won it. Don't get me wrong I like Ichiro but he is overrated. He is basically a better Brett Butler...


Well now you got me confused, you say he is overrated and yet you must pull out the best names in baseball to find one stat he produces less in. Nobody said Ichiro is better than any one of those players but, if you where building a franchise could you justify taking any of those names, excluding Pujols, over Ichiro? My assertion is simply that Ichiro is not overrated and deserves to be considered one of the best baseball players at this time. By stating he is lesser than another player based on one stat is absurd.

If you really want to get hardcore on the stats, check out his all-time Sagarin ratings. Add in the runs he prevents with his defense and his arm and I challenge you to find more than thimble-full of players who have more impact on baseball today. True Ichiro does not walk often thus lowering his OPS but he causes things to happen on the baseball field that they don't have stats for. If you watch Mariner baseball consistently you will find that an unusual amount of errors are committed after an Ichiro hit. The guy has already broken Kenny Lofton's hit to 1st base speed record and infielders know this, they rush, Ichiro gets on, runs score and errors are tabulated but he gets no credit for this in stathead land. Also, add in all the stolen bases and you'll find he would have a much higher OPS, he only needs a single to get on third in two pitches, what we Mariner fans like to call an Ichiro triple.

How have others determined that Ichiro is capable of 30+ HR seasons? Well you mentioned one factor- he's proven the ability to take off-speed pitches yard in bulk with that 27HR season in Japan, his 2nd pro season overall. Also he has won HR derbies there in the past. But the proof in the pudding is when you watch him take batting practice. Go on the right day and you will think Bonds is up there. Multiple 400 ft+ shots going right center and left. So y not hit for power? I don't know, but at this point the M's fell he is simply more valuable hitting for average, stealing bases and tiring out pitchers. With that ability to take any pitch to any part of the park at any time combined with his average w/runners in scoring position (maybe a correlation there) I’d like to see him hit 3rd in that order but life isn’t always fair. Regardless of his position in the lineup, isn't a main factor of what makes a great baseball player the ability to drive those runs in when they count? If anything baseball isn't evolved enough to use or maybe identify a player like Ichiro. Reminds me of what some of the great Negro league players might have been.

We haven't seen everything and every stat this man is capable of but he is assuredly one of the greatest talents in baseball. Don't hate on him because he had a sub-par sophomore season, you know that jinks is for real. So as Ichiro continues to do what he does best, I hope someday he shows more of that power side and bats lower in the order just so all you (I'm assuming) east coasters can grasp all that this man is capable of. In short, as much as I love Brett Butler, comparing him to Ichiro is almost an insult to Mr. Susuki, he is one of the greatest talents in baseball with potential to do even more. With time you non-believers will see the light.
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Postby Nomar4prez » Mon Jul 07, 2003 8:38 pm

I am definitely a sports fan first. I mean, why would you play fantasy unless you weren't?
[url]http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/stats/player.php?id=453973[/url]
Going to huge someday.
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Postby LCBOY » Mon Jul 07, 2003 8:54 pm

pdap100281 wrote:Well now you got me confused, you say he is overrated and yet you must pull out the best names in baseball to find one stat he produces less in. Nobody said Ichiro is better than any one of those players but, if you where building a franchise could you justify taking any of those names, excluding Pujols, over Ichiro? My assertion is simply that Ichiro is not overrated and deserves to be considered one of the best baseball players at this time. By stating he is lesser than another player based on one stat is absurd.

If you really want to get hardcore on the stats, check out his all-time Sagarin ratings. Add in the runs he prevents with his defense and his arm and I challenge you to find more than thimble-full of players who have more impact on baseball today. True Ichiro does not walk often thus lowering his OPS but he causes things to happen on the baseball field that they don't have stats for. If you watch Mariner baseball consistently you will find that an unusual amount of errors are committed after an Ichiro hit. The guy has already broken Kenny Lofton's hit to 1st base speed record and infielders know this, they rush, Ichiro gets on, runs score and errors are tabulated but he gets no credit for this in stathead land. Also, add in all the stolen bases and you'll find he would have a much higher OPS, he only needs a single to get on third in two pitches, what we Mariner fans like to call an Ichiro triple.

How have others determined that Ichiro is capable of 30+ HR seasons? Well you mentioned one factor- he's proven the ability to take off-speed pitches yard in bulk with that 27HR season in Japan, his 2nd pro season overall. Also he has won HR derbies there in the past. But the proof in the pudding is when you watch him take batting practice. Go on the right day and you will think Bonds is up there. Multiple 400 ft+ shots going right center and left. So y not hit for power? I don't know, but at this point the M's fell he is simply more valuable hitting for average, stealing bases and tiring out pitchers. With that ability to take any pitch to any part of the park at any time combined with his average w/runners in scoring position (maybe a correlation there) I’d like to see him hit 3rd in that order but life isn’t always fair. Regardless of his position in the lineup, isn't a main factor of what makes a great baseball player the ability to drive those runs in when they count? If anything baseball isn't evolved enough to use or maybe identify a player like Ichiro. Reminds me of what some of the great Negro league players might have been.

We haven't seen everything and every stat this man is capable of but he is assuredly one of the greatest talents in baseball. Don't hate on him because he had a sub-par sophomore season, you know that jinks is for real. So as Ichiro continues to do what he does best, I hope someday he shows more of that power side and bats lower in the order just so all you (I'm assuming) east coasters can grasp all that this man is capable of. In short, as much as I love Brett Butler, comparing him to Ichiro is almost an insult to Mr. Susuki, he is one of the greatest talents in baseball with potential to do even more. With time you non-believers will see the light.


First of all I live in California (Go Giants!!). I've seen a game at Safeco Field. It is a great ball park. I was there when A-Rod returned for the very first time! He homered but the Mariners won going away.

Secondly, I do NOT hate Ichiro. He is fun to watch, always. I just believe as a an offensive force he is not in the same level of Bonds, Pujols, Edmonds, Ramirez, Giambi. OPS is not "one stat" it is a combination of other stats. It takes into account power and an ability to get on base. I am not familiar with Sarigan's stats. Can you post a link to his info?

But let's look at other stats

run created per 27 outs:

Pujols 12.53
Bonds 11.32
Sheffield 9.34
Ramirez 8.41
Ichiro 7.47
Matsui 6.05

The game today is a power game. Have you noticed that most of the great power hitters of today draw a huge number of walks? Combining power and walks generates a large numbers of runs. Ichiro doesn't have power and he doesn't draw a lot of walks so how can he possibly generate as many runs as the power htters? No amount of great defense can make up for the difference in power and drawing walks. That doesn't mean Ichiro is not a great player but there are other hitters better than him. Is that an insult to Ichiro? Of course not!! He is fun to watch!
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Postby ramble2 » Tue Jul 08, 2003 12:26 am

First and foremost I'm a baseball fan. I mean, c'mon, with an avatar like mine could I be anything else? :-D

I love going to baseball games and listening to them on the radio. I love the pace of the game, the way tension builds, and the drama of a good game. Good baseball preaches the virtues of patience, concentration, never giving up, fairness and teamwork. Compare this to the virtues that are rewarded in basketball or football (not to disparage those sports, as I enjoy them as well - but for different reasons). In baseball, both teams get an equal number of outs. There is no time limit.

I grew up listening to Ernie Harwell, and enjoy the traditions of the game. That's why listening to ballgames on the radio is so superior to watching a game on tv. The radio announcers tend to be better at telling the stories behind the game, and giving you the history behind the unwritten rules.

At the same time, I like it when traditions are challenged. It's good for the game to continually be evolving (not that all the changes are for the better). I now live in the SF Bay Area, and go to A's games. Beane is great. And as much as I may dislike some of Selig's changes and stances, I think it's good that he's been willing to challenge the old school crowd and keep baseball fresh.

Part of what made me love baseball as a little kid was all the statistics that come along with the game. I used to make up my own metrics by which I would measure the various players. Naturally, when I discovered fantasy baseball it was right up my alley. For me, it's a way to enhance my enjoyment of the game. It keeps me that much more interested in all the box scores, and helps me keep track of the various players.

I love Ichiro. He's an exciting player and is a great defender. His fantasy value, though, is much lower than his real life value. His defense can not be overstated, and though I think people tend to undervalue stolen bases in fantasy baseball (they don't show up in OPS, for one thing) Ichiro isn't quite at the top tier of OF. So as a baseball fan, I think Ichiro is deserving of being on the All-Star team. As a rotohead, I'd leave him off.
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Re: Statheads or Do You Know The Game? (Question For All)

Postby HOOTIE » Tue Jul 08, 2003 12:42 am

[quote=Statheads drive me nuts and they can ruin a good fantasy league.[/quote]

Seems to me fantasy is the counting off STATS to determine a winner. Nothing wrong with chewing up lots of stats.
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Postby timkell » Tue Jul 08, 2003 3:39 am

Regardless of his position in the lineup, isn't a main factor of what makes a great baseball player the ability to drive those runs in when they count?


Ask any stathead. There's no such thing as clutch hitting!

:-D
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Postby wrveres » Tue Jul 08, 2003 4:04 am

timkell wrote:Ask any stathead. There's no such thing as clutch hitting!
:-D


:-) RISP/2outs ... Now that could be a fun category .. ;-D ;-D
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Postby Guest » Tue Jul 08, 2003 1:46 pm

Does your SLG % need to be high if you can steal 2b or 3b when needed. In my opinion a single followed by a steal of 2b is as good as a double. When there are runners on 2nd and 3rd down by 1 with 2 outs in the bottom of the ninth Ichiro is the guy I want at the plate. I'd say he isn't overrated at all. He is just a different type of outfielder then the prototypical that gets it done in his own way.
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Postby blankman » Tue Jul 08, 2003 2:09 pm

LCBOY wrote:
OK, let's look at "offensive skills". Right now Ichiro is batting .349/.388/.467. The .349 BA is great, his OBP is mearly good. A leadoff hitter should ideally have an OBP over .400. His .467 SLG% is low for a corner outfielder. If he is capable of hitting 30 HRs a year then why doesn't he? On what EVIDENCE did you base this assertion? His career high in Japan is only 27. His career OPS is only .832. That is very low. An All-Star Outfielder should have a much higher OPS.

Here are the starting six outfielders with their OPS, for the All-Star game


Barry Bonds 1162
Albert Pujols 1138
Gary Sheffield 1126
Manny Ramirez 1003
Ichiro Suzuki 855
Hideki Matsui 838

Now, what is wrong with this picture?

He does play great defense and and have a great arm. His 2001 MPV was a mistake. Jiambi should have won it. Don't get me wrong I like Ichiro but he is overrated. He is basically a better Brett Butler...


Amen to that. Finally, some other people that agree with me that Ichiro IS overrated. I've been saying it forever, the Real 2001 MVP was Jason Giambi.

And please don't both arguing with me about this. I really don't feel like looking up stats to back up my point or refute the idea that he's not overrated. You can waste all of your time putting together reasons of why he's not overrated, but its pointless. Barely anyone is going to switch sides no matter what is said.

No one is arguing over whether Ichiro is good or not, because thats not what overrated means. Ichiro is overrated b/c he's surely a great player, but not as great as many have made him out to be- which is the definition of overrated.
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