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Liriano,Cain,McCarthy,Verlander

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Liriano,Cain,McCarthy,Verlander

Postby kidnemisis » Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:10 pm

Savvy players and/or fans of the respective teams. Tell me things I don't know about these fellas. Lie to me if the secrets are so big you want to keep them to yourselves. Just give some conversation about them. Ervin Santana was big in the playoffs where does he stand?
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Postby SouthBronxBombers » Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:48 pm

Cain and Verlander both have starting positions to lose in ST. McCarthy and Liriano are both scheduled to work out of the pen. As far as upside goes, Liriano has the most, Verlander and Cain, although that order can be reversed and then McCarthy.
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Postby kidnemisis » Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:00 pm

I appreciate the info, anybody else? Come on gentlemen these guys are very interesting wild cards on draft day. Maybe some predictions? All I know is I heard Liriano was throwing 98 in the wbc and that Cain was the truth, but I also think Verlander could shine in that park.
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Postby Secret Avatar » Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:29 pm

I like Liriano best and drafted him for my team last week ahead of Cain and Verlander. I think Liriano has the most talent and the most upside. The only issue with him is where he ends up to start the season. I think he'll nail down the 5th starter spot to open the season. He's the best option they have for that slot. Even if he doesn't, he'll work out of the bullpen for a while (and get RP eligibility). I just don't see him staying out of the starting rotation for long.
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Postby TB13 » Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:29 am

I like Cain a lot. My gut tells me that (and I am not comparing these guys per se) the difference between the two in the future is like the difference between will only be a round or two in the future. He also pitches in a park that favors pitchers. Another plus. Pitching in the NL is also a good thing.
Having said that, I like Liriano the best. But I also have the feeling that he will be in the bullpen at least until Loshe is gone or Baker fails miserably. They know what they are doing in Minny. Liriano will be a stud one day.
Verlander is the X factor. While pitching in the AL is typically a minus for me, he also pitches in a park that favors pitchers. Plus he has a cannon of a fastball. If he can be taught control, he has the stuff to be as anyone, IMO. Can't teach someone how to whip the ball as fast as he does. But you can teach someone control and how to change speeds. With his velocity, Verlander could be a force.
MCarthy is another good prospect. Not as good as the ones already listed, IMO, but a solid #3, with potential to be a #2 type pitcher. I hate where he pitches though.
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Postby hellmat » Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:02 am

Be a Twins, fan I expect the Twins to start Liriano in Triple A to start the season. Pitching prospect Scott Baker pitched well over the final two months of the season last year, and should be considered the frontrunner for the twins 5th rotation spot. Liriano will not pitch in the bullpen, as the organization has stated it doesn't want to make the same mistake it did with Santana. That being said, Liriano is the future and should make his way into the rotation by June or July.
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Postby booboo » Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:32 am

i rank those 4 guys: liriano, mccarthy, ....<big gap>...., cain, verlander

i disagree with TB13.

i'm not a fan of the young 6'5 rightee fireballer with a big breaking ball. in fact, i just traded verlander for jeremy sowers in an AL keeper league, and feel pretty good about it.

here's why i don't like those two:
1. in their younger, formidable years, they rely on gas, and never learn how to pitch. they're throwers. i think during those younger, formidable years, pitchers, who don't possess high heat, learn the craft. they learn about feel, poise, and adjusting on the fly.
2. they rarely develop a major league changeup to compliment their 95 mph+ heat.
3. command and location. neither cain or verlander have it. look at cain's and verlander's track records of walks
4. major league batter crush fastballs....even those of the 97 mph variety.
5. injury & durability. high heat = high physical effort = surgery.
6. changing speeds and disrupting a hitter's timing. yeah, 97 mph is nice. then when you throw a low 80's breaking ball without a serviceable changeup that can be thrown consistently, that's basically two speeds: 97 & 82, which makes one awfully predictable. i'd take a guy who throws 92 and 77, and hits everything in between and locates it wherever he wants, while adding and subtracting on the fastball, throwing changeups, turning that curveball into a slurve on occasion, etc.
7. pitching is an art form, a chess match. it's not some shock and awe contest where pure velocity and movement win. that's for closers who go all out, one inning at a time. these are the reasons i don't like verlander or cain.

i look at what happened to greinke. the royals tried to change him into a 95 mph power pitcher (fastball/slider combo guy). they said he had too many pitches. they wouldn't let him throw his slow breaking ball anymore. they wouldn't let him develop a knuckleball. they took away everything unique about him and tried to turn him into the prototypical verlander type. ah, poor guy.
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Postby hybrid » Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:10 am

I think you are generalizing to much between pitchers and not the actual individuals being discussed.

1. To a degree this can be typical of pitching prospects, but nothing you said makes it really correct for the pitchers you are talking about.
2. Again, this is mainly just assumption. Both were required to throw change ups last year and both have had the pitch improve.
3. One area you have a point in with both pitchers. That being said it's not uncommon for a pitcher of 20 years old to struggle with command at AAA. I'm not saying he ever will have good or great control, but giving all the other factors there is a good chance he will improve his command. Also Verlander made adjustments last year to his delivery, which lead to improved control last year in the minors.
4. Yep, major leaguers can crush mid-90's FB's ... and it's even easier to crush ones not as fast.
5. High heat doesn't equal high physical effort. For example Harden has one of the smoothest deliveries there is, his delivery isn't a high effort one. In fact Cain has a very smooth delivery, though I'm not a fan as much of Verlanders. If you want to bring injury into this, Liriano had troubles with his shoulder for 2 years which to me is more concerning then anything Cain/Verlander have had.
6. This is almost like #1 in many ways. If you have watched Cain you would know he doesn't throw 97 all game or just sit at 2 speeds, he knows how to pitch pretty well for a 20 year old. Like I said before both are improving their change ups not to be 2 pitch pitchers.
7. This is basically like everything mixed into one, I've pretty much addressed everything you have said though.
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Postby ukrneal » Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:47 am

booboo wrote:i rank those 4 guys: liriano, mccarthy, ....<big gap>...., cain, verlander

i disagree with TB13.

i'm not a fan of the young 6'5 rightee fireballer with a big breaking ball. in fact, i just traded verlander for jeremy sowers in an AL keeper league, and feel pretty good about it.

here's why i don't like those two:
1. in their younger, formidable years, they rely on gas, and never learn how to pitch. they're throwers. i think during those younger, formidable years, pitchers, who don't possess high heat, learn the craft. they learn about feel, poise, and adjusting on the fly.
2. they rarely develop a major league changeup to compliment their 95 mph+ heat.
3. command and location. neither cain or verlander have it. look at cain's and verlander's track records of walks
4. major league batter crush fastballs....even those of the 97 mph variety.
5. injury & durability. high heat = high physical effort = surgery.
6. changing speeds and disrupting a hitter's timing. yeah, 97 mph is nice. then when you throw a low 80's breaking ball without a serviceable changeup that can be thrown consistently, that's basically two speeds: 97 & 82, which makes one awfully predictable. i'd take a guy who throws 92 and 77, and hits everything in between and locates it wherever he wants, while adding and subtracting on the fastball, throwing changeups, turning that curveball into a slurve on occasion, etc.
7. pitching is an art form, a chess match. it's not some shock and awe contest where pure velocity and movement win. that's for closers who go all out, one inning at a time. these are the reasons i don't like verlander or cain.

i look at what happened to greinke. the royals tried to change him into a 95 mph power pitcher (fastball/slider combo guy). they said he had too many pitches. they wouldn't let him throw his slow breaking ball anymore. they wouldn't let him develop a knuckleball. they took away everything unique about him and tried to turn him into the prototypical verlander type. ah, poor guy.


As pitchers gain maturity, they begin to learn more pitches. It is rare to have a pitcher come out of HS or college with 3 or 4 good pitches. Many learn 1 or 2 more in the minors, spring training, and in the Big Leagues. Many of the great pitchers only became great when they developed some new pitch to mix in with the others. This is a normal and necessary process.
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Postby WittyC » Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:14 am

ukrneal wrote:As pitchers gain maturity, they begin to learn more pitches. It is rare to have a pitcher come out of HS or college with 3 or 4 good pitches. Many learn 1 or 2 more in the minors, spring training, and in the Big Leagues. Many of the great pitchers only became great when they developed some new pitch to mix in with the others. This is a normal and necessary process.


It can even happen to guys later in their careers! See: Esteban Loaiza, circa 2003. I remember reading that he added a pitch prior to that season (want to say it was a change, but not 100%) and attributed much of his success to it.

Apparently he couldn't throw it in Yankee Stadium, though. :*)
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