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Can someone tell me why you would draft Pierre

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Postby rich101682 » Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:17 am

Whoa whoa whoa...why don't we settle this the old fashoned Cafe way? NZF and anyone who opposes him can all put a running tally of Pierre's stats against Roberts/Lofton's stats in their sigs. I know it would be hard work to keep up with, since NZF would have to keep track of the stats of who he's putting in each day and not just adding them both together, but I'm sure it could be done.

So I guess the question is: who's gonna sac up and "officially" oppose NZF to the extent that they would bet a sig against it?
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Postby glcmustliveon » Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:18 am

bigh0rt wrote:
glcmustliveon wrote:I wish I could shoot 95 and have a bad day....
These types of dillemas are the reason points based leagues rock! I am interested how it works out though... My prediction is that Pierre will out produce the Roberts/Pierre combo.


I doubt this. :-? :-b


you misunderstood me, I know that the aggregate numbers of both will outproduce Pierre, but seeing as how it will be closer to an average because the owner will have to switch them, Pierre will obviously outproduce the platoon, whether or not its worth using Pierre or the platoon is yet to be seen...
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Postby nuggets » Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:22 am

glcmustliveon wrote:
bigh0rt wrote:
glcmustliveon wrote:I wish I could shoot 95 and have a bad day....
These types of dillemas are the reason points based leagues rock! I am interested how it works out though... My prediction is that Pierre will out produce the Roberts/Pierre combo.


I doubt this. :-? :-b


you misunderstood me, I know that the aggregate numbers of both will outproduce Pierre, but seeing as how it will be closer to an average because the owner will have to switch them, Pierre will obviously outproduce the platoon, whether or not its worth using Pierre or the platoon is yet to be seen...


I think he was pointing out that your platoon has Pierre in it instead of Lofton.
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Postby tgalv » Sun Mar 12, 2006 3:36 am

the ONLY time this is a good stategy is after the season is over and you can add up lofton's and robert's stats and come to the assinine conclussion that it equals juan pierre.

if you want to say that juan pierre and the value of a steal is overrated fine, but to arrogantly spout off that all you need to do is find the two perfect players out of then entire free-agent list and then you will magically have a juan pierre is ridiculous. roberts and lofton stole about 45 bags combined. did you actually check to see on which days those bags were stolen? probably a lot of them on the exact same day. and probably a lot of them were when you would have played the other guy. this whole post was just a waste of space.
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Postby nuggets » Sun Mar 12, 2006 3:39 am

tgalv wrote:the ONLY time this is a good stategy is after the season is over and you can add up lofton's and robert's stats and come to the assinine conclussion that it equals juan pierre.

if you want to say that juan pierre and the value of a steal is overrated fine, but to arrogantly spout off that all you need to do is find the two perfect players out of then entire free-agent list and then you will magically have a juan pierre is ridiculous. roberts and lofton stole about 45 bags combined. did you actually check to see on which days those bags were stolen? probably a lot of them on the exact same day. and probably a lot of them were when you would have played the other guy. this whole post was just a waste of space.


Welcome to the Cafe ;-D
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Postby AcidRock23 » Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:16 am

tgalv wrote:the ONLY time this is a good stategy is after the season is over and you can add up lofton's and robert's stats and come to the assinine conclussion that it equals juan pierre.

if you want to say that juan pierre and the value of a steal is overrated fine, but to arrogantly spout off that all you need to do is find the two perfect players out of then entire free-agent list and then you will magically have a juan pierre is ridiculous. roberts and lofton stole about 45 bags combined. did you actually check to see on which days those bags were stolen? probably a lot of them on the exact same day. and probably a lot of them were when you would have played the other guy. this whole post was just a waste of space.


It wouldn't just be adding up their stats, you'd have to 'babysit' them and keep track of who you'd play each day if you were doing a platoon. Which is where it would get interesting. 'Gosh, Roberts went 0-5 against a lefty, lucky he was riding my pine while Lofton went 1-3 w/ a BB and 2 SB!!' hee hee.

Of course, it would be a shame to get going on that and have somebody fall down the dugout steps and sprain their ankle or whatever...
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Postby nuggets » Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:10 pm

Another problem is Roberts injury history. He's never played more than 127 games and he's already 34 years old. How are you going to play the splits game when one of your guys is likely to play only 70% of the year? Then you look at Lofton who has played in 110, 83 and 140 games over the last three years. Will he be 110 game Lofton of last year or at the age of 39 will he be a 140 game guy?

The question is basically: Can you replace a consistent player who produces high quality Runs, SB and Average with two scrubs? The problem is that view doesn't approach player value correctly. You have to look at the players themselves and if you do you'll find the proposed strategy avoids and relatively solid option and opts for two old men who are injury risks. Not smart. You are better off going with Pierre and rotating those two rosters spots which would have been Lofton and Roberts between decent pitchers with good matchups, or better yet take some potential late the draft that could end up giving you better stats than you'll ever get out of Roberts and Lofton. There are a lot of guys out there...
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Postby Ender » Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:19 pm

I think we are problably dwelling on his specific example too much and not the point of the post which I generally agree with. You don't want to be so enamored with getting SB's that you reach on players just to get them.

For example in my recent draft which used OPS instead of AVG someone took Pierre in the 3rd round. This is clearly reaching for someone that is only giving you 2 categories with this setup and hurting you badly in 3 categories. I basically tanked SB until later rounds where I picked up Lugo and then got Freel as a super sub to fill in SB as well as a few 10 SB types and I wanted a D.Roberts or W. Taveras late but I just missed out on them.

I feel I got a lot more value out of my 3rd round pick who was Dunn(remember OPS instead of AVG) instead of completely killing myself in 3 stats with Pierre. In that same draft all the big SB guys went ahead of their value because everyone wanted to get SB covered regardless of how much it hurt their HR, RBI and OPS stats.

I would never go into a draft with the strategy of ignoring SB and picking up some weak player like D.Roberts to fill in the SB in the late rounds but if everyone is jumping on SB way too early you don't have to go overboard and panic, pick up some decent 10-20 SB types and if you can get a D.Roberts later to fill in your SB somewhat as a spot starter.
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Postby NZF » Sun Mar 12, 2006 5:35 pm

tgalv wrote:roberts and lofton stole about 45 bags combined. did you actually check to see on which days those bags were stolen? probably a lot of them on the exact same day. and probably a lot of them were when you would have played the other guy.


Yeah funny you should say that because in fact I did.


If you had platooned Lofton and Roberts in 2005, always starting Lofton over Roberts unless Roberts had a more favourable matchup at Coors, Citizens or Chase for example, that combination would have given you

Almost 100 runs 6 HR's 55 RBI's 35 SB's and the best thing of all a batting average in excess of .350. Way more valuable than Pierre even allowing for the 24 SB difference.

And total games played would have been 151 with April being the only month that you couldn't fully maximise your roster with them.
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Postby NZF » Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:09 pm

With the completion of the first month of the season it's time to look at the 4th rounder comparison to the waiver wire platoon.

The platoon has been disadvantaged by having Lofton start the season on the DL. In the league I'm using this platoon, I grabbed Womack as a short term replacement when he initially got the starting job in Cincinnati but only ended up with a handful of AB's from him.

For the record:

Pierre 93 AB's 24 hits BA .258
17 Runs 2 Rbi's 8 SB's

Lofton/Roberts 90 AB's 27 hits BA .300
15 Runs 10 Rbi's 8 SB's


A significant difference even with Lofton on the DL for the first half of April. Pierre's value may be hurting without Lee but he is still not showing the ability to take outside pitches the other way and will continue to be only a .260-.270 hitter as a result. Also the loss of Lee has little bearing on just 2 Rbi's in one month.

Despite many claims to the contrary, this platoon is also taking up very little time to maintain with Lofton nearly always in the lineup. In fact with Lowry and Estes on the DL there are very few left handed starters in the NL West.
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