Bonds and Steroids - WOW

[Art Vandelay]

don't know if this was at least partially directed toward me, but if so, i brought up Aaron's name only in direct reference to another post which had referenced him...i'm not personally reading into his words/actions one way or another, although it's certainly well within the realm of possibility that a person might have myriad motivations for a choice such as Aaron's, only some of which they might share, for reasons of personal tact, or unwillingness to enter into controversy. On the other hand, perhaps his only motives are those he has mentioned. I haven't read his comments on the matter, but it wouldn't necessarily make him a liar if he gave one motivation without revealing all his cards...it might just make him prudent or polite, or any number of things.
Another of your lines of thought seems to be that the anti-Bonds crowd is guilty of biased treatment of stated fact/opinion in favor of their own beliefs....while this is almost assuredly undeniable, i'd hope you would an equal possibility of bias within the pro-Bonds crowd...unless i miss my guess, i'd say this is a phenomenon of the human condition at large, not so much something to be found on either one or the other side of this specific argument...

I wasn't directing anything at you, just making a general comment. It just strikes me as odd that people always talk about Aaron's class and dignity when comparing him to Bonds, then say "but obviously he's lying about why he won't go to the game." And you are absolutely correct: it's not just the anti-Bonds crowd who are selective about which sources or stories they believe depending on the content. However, I have not noticed as many Bonds supporters give credence and accept as valid anonymous sources while ignoring named sources as vice versa.

I cannot say whether or not Aaron or Bonds took steroids with 100% certainty. There is a whole lot more circumstantial evidence pointing towards Bonds though. I do not for a second believe that Bonds was the only high profile player taking roids. There were/are still loads of them is my guess. BUT when you bring up Bonds, Aaron and dignity well there is a huge chasm here. Bonds does not and has not ever shown a shred of dignity, he does not feel that he has to treat others with respect. At least that is how Bonds comes off. Aaron on the other hand is generally thought of a respectful person that exudes dignity. If Bonds wanted to be the media poster child he should have maybe at least thought about treating others with respect. Bonds made his bed and he is lying in it, he deserves all the lack of respect that he is getting. If Bonds were a more likeable player like say Griffey his breaking the home run record would be full of glitz and fan fare. But Bonds chose to not treat others with respect, so why should Bonds expect any respect?

The Cow

I don't know what this has to do with my post, but I'll reply anyway: Bonds shouldn't expect respect, and people shouldn't expect him to treat them respectfully after they've (they being fans, media, etc) had a disdainful relationship with eachother for years. The reason I mentioned the perceived class and dignity of Aaron was not to compare him to Bonds, but to ask, if he is indeed full of dignity and class, then why do people accuse him of lying about his motivations for not going to the record-breaking game? People say "oh, Hank Aaron was a great man. Full of class, treated people with respect, saved my kitten from a tree once...but he's lying about this." It makes no sense. If you think Aaron is a great, dignified man, don't you have to accept his reasoning at face value and not come to your own conclusions so that his actions will fit into whatever keyhole you want to put them in?

[The Cow]

don't know if this was at least partially directed toward me, but if so, i brought up Aaron's name only in direct reference to another post which had referenced him...i'm not personally reading into his words/actions one way or another, although it's certainly well within the realm of possibility that a person might have myriad motivations for a choice such as Aaron's, only some of which they might share, for reasons of personal tact, or unwillingness to enter into controversy. On the other hand, perhaps his only motives are those he has mentioned. I haven't read his comments on the matter, but it wouldn't necessarily make him a liar if he gave one motivation without revealing all his cards...it might just make him prudent or polite, or any number of things.
Another of your lines of thought seems to be that the anti-Bonds crowd is guilty of biased treatment of stated fact/opinion in favor of their own beliefs....while this is almost assuredly undeniable, i'd hope you would an equal possibility of bias within the pro-Bonds crowd...unless i miss my guess, i'd say this is a phenomenon of the human condition at large, not so much something to be found on either one or the other side of this specific argument...

I wasn't directing anything at you, just making a general comment. It just strikes me as odd that people always talk about Aaron's class and dignity when comparing him to Bonds, then say "but obviously he's lying about why he won't go to the game." And you are absolutely correct: it's not just the anti-Bonds crowd who are selective about which sources or stories they believe depending on the content. However, I have not noticed as many Bonds supporters give credence and accept as valid anonymous sources while ignoring named sources as vice versa.

I cannot say whether or not Aaron or Bonds took steroids with 100% certainty. There is a whole lot more circumstantial evidence pointing towards Bonds though. I do not for a second believe that Bonds was the only high profile player taking roids. There were/are still loads of them is my guess. BUT when you bring up Bonds, Aaron and dignity well there is a huge chasm here. Bonds does not and has not ever shown a shred of dignity, he does not feel that he has to treat others with respect. At least that is how Bonds comes off. Aaron on the other hand is generally thought of a respectful person that exudes dignity. If Bonds wanted to be the media poster child he should have maybe at least thought about treating others with respect. Bonds made his bed and he is lying in it, he deserves all the lack of respect that he is getting. If Bonds were a more likeable player like say Griffey his breaking the home run record would be full of glitz and fan fare. But Bonds chose to not treat others with respect, so why should Bonds expect any respect?

The Cow

I don't know what this has to do with my post, but I'll reply anyway: Bonds shouldn't expect respect, and people shouldn't expect him to treat them respectfully after they've (they being fans, media, etc) had a disdainful relationship with eachother for years. The reason I mentioned the perceived class and dignity of Aaron was not to compare him to Bonds, but to ask, if he is indeed full of dignity and class, then why do people accuse him of lying about his motivations for not going to the record-breaking game? People say "oh, Hank Aaron was a great man. Full of class, treated people with respect, saved my kitten from a tree once...but he's lying about this." It makes no sense. If you think Aaron is a great, dignified man, don't you have to accept his reasoning at face value and not come to your own conclusions so that his actions will fit into whatever keyhole you want to put them in?

I think Aaron is trying to take the high road here. There are probably alot of unkind things Aaron could say about Bonds, but he has chosen to not bash Bonds. Aaron could say "I will not be at the game to watch that cheating bastard break my record", but he will not do this. Instead of bashing Bonds, Aaron says its too much travel and for this you bash Aaron? What do you want Aaron to stone Bonds?

The Cow

[shasty mcnasty]

don't know if this was at least partially directed toward me, but if so, i brought up Aaron's name only in direct reference to another post which had referenced him...i'm not personally reading into his words/actions one way or another, although it's certainly well within the realm of possibility that a person might have myriad motivations for a choice such as Aaron's, only some of which they might share, for reasons of personal tact, or unwillingness to enter into controversy. On the other hand, perhaps his only motives are those he has mentioned. I haven't read his comments on the matter, but it wouldn't necessarily make him a liar if he gave one motivation without revealing all his cards...it might just make him prudent or polite, or any number of things.
Another of your lines of thought seems to be that the anti-Bonds crowd is guilty of biased treatment of stated fact/opinion in favor of their own beliefs....while this is almost assuredly undeniable, i'd hope you would an equal possibility of bias within the pro-Bonds crowd...unless i miss my guess, i'd say this is a phenomenon of the human condition at large, not so much something to be found on either one or the other side of this specific argument...

I wasn't directing anything at you, just making a general comment. It just strikes me as odd that people always talk about Aaron's class and dignity when comparing him to Bonds, then say "but obviously he's lying about why he won't go to the game." And you are absolutely correct: it's not just the anti-Bonds crowd who are selective about which sources or stories they believe depending on the content. However, I have not noticed as many Bonds supporters give credence and accept as valid anonymous sources while ignoring named sources as vice versa.

I cannot say whether or not Aaron or Bonds took steroids with 100% certainty. There is a whole lot more circumstantial evidence pointing towards Bonds though. I do not for a second believe that Bonds was the only high profile player taking roids. There were/are still loads of them is my guess. BUT when you bring up Bonds, Aaron and dignity well there is a huge chasm here. Bonds does not and has not ever shown a shred of dignity, he does not feel that he has to treat others with respect. At least that is how Bonds comes off. Aaron on the other hand is generally thought of a respectful person that exudes dignity. If Bonds wanted to be the media poster child he should have maybe at least thought about treating others with respect. Bonds made his bed and he is lying in it, he deserves all the lack of respect that he is getting. If Bonds were a more likeable player like say Griffey his breaking the home run record would be full of glitz and fan fare. But Bonds chose to not treat others with respect, so why should Bonds expect any respect?

The Cow

just wanted to agree with Art, that no one was comparing Aaron and Bonds...the conversation was concerning Aaron's reasons given for not attending Bonds' home run bash, not the relative character flaws of each man.

[Art Vandelay]

I think Aaron is trying to take the high road here. There are probably alot of unkind things Aaron could say about Bonds, but he has chosen to not bash Bonds. Aaron could say "I will not be at the game to watch that cheating bastard break my record", but he will not do this. Instead of bashing Bonds, Aaron says its too much travel and for this you bash Aaron? What do you want Aaron to stone Bonds?

Me bash Aaron? Huh? I don't know how to say this any more clear than I already have. You are the perfect example of what I'm talking about. You claim that Aaron is a great guy, a paragon of virtue, full of class and dignity...then you claim that he is lying about this. Why? If he is indeed a viruous person, and he thinks he (and the game of baseball) is being cheated, then wouldn't the dignified thing to do be to call out the cheater? It is absolutely ridiculous to claim to know Aaron's motivations and intentions based on nothing other that pure speculation.

No, I'm not bashing Aaron. I'm bashing fans like you who call him a liar. People who say that he personifies dignity and class while in the same breath saying you don't believe him.

[shasty mcnasty]

don't know if this was at least partially directed toward me, but if so, i brought up Aaron's name only in direct reference to another post which had referenced him...i'm not personally reading into his words/actions one way or another, although it's certainly well within the realm of possibility that a person might have myriad motivations for a choice such as Aaron's, only some of which they might share, for reasons of personal tact, or unwillingness to enter into controversy. On the other hand, perhaps his only motives are those he has mentioned. I haven't read his comments on the matter, but it wouldn't necessarily make him a liar if he gave one motivation without revealing all his cards...it might just make him prudent or polite, or any number of things.
Another of your lines of thought seems to be that the anti-Bonds crowd is guilty of biased treatment of stated fact/opinion in favor of their own beliefs....while this is almost assuredly undeniable, i'd hope you would an equal possibility of bias within the pro-Bonds crowd...unless i miss my guess, i'd say this is a phenomenon of the human condition at large, not so much something to be found on either one or the other side of this specific argument...

I wasn't directing anything at you, just making a general comment. It just strikes me as odd that people always talk about Aaron's class and dignity when comparing him to Bonds, then say "but obviously he's lying about why he won't go to the game." And you are absolutely correct: it's not just the anti-Bonds crowd who are selective about which sources or stories they believe depending on the content. However, I have not noticed as many Bonds supporters give credence and accept as valid anonymous sources while ignoring named sources as vice versa.

I cannot say whether or not Aaron or Bonds took steroids with 100% certainty. There is a whole lot more circumstantial evidence pointing towards Bonds though. I do not for a second believe that Bonds was the only high profile player taking roids. There were/are still loads of them is my guess. BUT when you bring up Bonds, Aaron and dignity well there is a huge chasm here. Bonds does not and has not ever shown a shred of dignity, he does not feel that he has to treat others with respect. At least that is how Bonds comes off. Aaron on the other hand is generally thought of a respectful person that exudes dignity. If Bonds wanted to be the media poster child he should have maybe at least thought about treating others with respect. Bonds made his bed and he is lying in it, he deserves all the lack of respect that he is getting. If Bonds were a more likeable player like say Griffey his breaking the home run record would be full of glitz and fan fare. But Bonds chose to not treat others with respect, so why should Bonds expect any respect?

The Cow

I don't know what this has to do with my post, but I'll reply anyway: Bonds shouldn't expect respect, and people shouldn't expect him to treat them respectfully after they've (they being fans, media, etc) had a disdainful relationship with eachother for years. The reason I mentioned the perceived class and dignity of Aaron was not to compare him to Bonds, but to ask, if he is indeed full of dignity and class, then why do people accuse him of lying about his motivations for not going to the record-breaking game? People say "oh, Hank Aaron was a great man. Full of class, treated people with respect, saved my kitten from a tree once...but he's lying about this." It makes no sense. If you think Aaron is a great, dignified man, don't you have to accept his reasoning at face value and not come to your own conclusions so that his actions will fit into whatever keyhole you want to put them in?

I think Aaron is trying to take the high road here. There are probably alot of unkind things Aaron could say about Bonds, but he has chosen to not bash Bonds. Aaron could say "I will not be at the game to watch that cheating bastard break my record", but he will not do this. Instead of bashing Bonds, Aaron says its too much travel and for this you bash Aaron? What do you want Aaron to stone Bonds?

The Cow

I didn't see Art bashing Aaron...but i'm sure he'll respond and try to clarify what he was saying (though it seemed clear to me). I think it's instructive to note that IF Aaron is taking the "high road" (we don't KNOW that....obviously, the anti-Bonds crowd would like to think so) it's not some kind of indictment against his character. If the anti-Bonds crowd reads into Aaron's statements (or lack thereof) as The Cow has so explicitly done, it doesn't necessarily mean Aaron (an individual held up for his sterling character traits) is now a liar...sometimes the world at large doesn't need to be informed of each motivation that goes into making a decision. Sometimes "travel concerns" are enough. And on the other hand, perhaps "travel concerns" really are the only/main reason that Aaron won't attend. It must be noted that the travel concerns would potentially be obnoxious...plus, aside from Bond's character/cheating issues, i don't think there are alot of guys out there that would like to hang around to watch another guy break their record...

[shasty mcnasty]

do we have any sociopaths in the house?
If so here. ESPN just published you a how to manual:

Cliff notes for ya ..

while we're on the topic of mental disorders, do we have any Delusional Disordered, Persecutory Types in the house...?

[The Cow]

I think Aaron is trying to take the high road here. There are probably alot of unkind things Aaron could say about Bonds, but he has chosen to not bash Bonds. Aaron could say "I will not be at the game to watch that cheating bastard break my record", but he will not do this. Instead of bashing Bonds, Aaron says its too much travel and for this you bash Aaron? What do you want Aaron to stone Bonds?

Me bash Aaron? Huh? I don't know how to say this any more clear than I already have. You are the perfect example of what I'm talking about. You claim that Aaron is a great guy, a paragon of virtue, full of class and dignity...then you claim that he is lying about this. Why? If he is indeed a viruous person, and he thinks he (and the game of baseball) is being cheated, then wouldn't the dignified thing to do be to call out the cheater? It is absolutely ridiculous to claim to know Aaron's motivations and intentions based on nothing other that pure speculation.

No, I'm not bashing Aaron. I'm bashing fans like you who call him a liar. People who say that he personifies dignity and class while in the same breath saying you don't believe him.

No the dignified thing to do would not be to call out the cheater. Unless of course you think hearing Aaron rant about what a cheater Bonds has become is somehow dignified. Perhaps at Aaron's age he does not want to follow Bonds around the country. Didn't Bonds just break out of a two week home run drought? It sure would get old following bonds around for 2 weeks. Really its kind of silly for any player to follow another player around the country for 2 weeks. If Aaron feels so inclined a phone call should suffice, IMO. But no I don't think Aaron calling Bonds a cheater makes Aaron more dignified.

The Cow

[knapplc]

Nice 17-month-old response there, Cow. I'm sure Art is going to just pick that conversation up right where you left it.

[Neato Torpedo]

Holy CRAP. Sorry mweir, there is NO chance I'm reading all of this lol.