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In favor of Bonds breaking Aaron's record?

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In favor of Bonds breaking Aaron's record?

Poll ended at Fri Mar 17, 2006 4:36 pm

Can't Wait, maybe he'll get to 800?!
52
26%
Hope he never touches Aaron's record, hows that knee holding up btw?
146
74%
 
Total votes : 198

Postby nuggets » Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:38 pm

ramble2 wrote:Maybe I've missed it in the mass of Bonds posts, but there seem to be a couple of factors that aren't being brought up. I'm not sure how to fit them into all the other data, but they strike me as relevant.

The first is that it's not really very fair to compare Bonds AB/HR ratios with other players. Better to compare his PA/HR. Given the number of walks he's getting, one would expect his home run rate per AB to go up simply for that reason alone. Using plate appearances/home run will probably be a better metric of comparison.

The other consideration is that he moved to a new ballpark in 2000. A ballpark that was designed for his swing. Here are some numbers to compare.

Steroids Comparison: pre- and post-1998
1993-1997 AB/HR: 12.65
1998-2004 AB/HR: 9.63
1998-2000; 2002-2004 AB/HR: 10.15
2001 AB/HR: 6.52

1993-1997 PA/HR: 16.01
1998-2004 PA/HR: 10.50
1998-2000; 2002-2004 PA/HR: 13.87
2001 PA/HR: 9.10

Ballpark Comparison: Candlestick vs. [phone company]park
1993-1999 AB/HR: 12.66
2000-2004 AB/HR: 8.41
2000; 2002-2004 AB/HR: 8.88

1993-1999 PA/HR: 15.95
2000-2004 PA/HR: 12.14
2000; 2002-2004 PA/HR: 12.91

Clearly Bonds saw a huge jump in his numbers. The huge jump, though, correlates more closely with his move to [phone company]park than it does to his supposed steroid use.

I'm not trying to argue that he never used steroids. I think it's probable that he, and many others, used all sorts of illegal substances. I'm not convinced, though, that using steroids is as effective as detractors say. I think having a ballpark custom built for your swing is probably far more effective.

(And yes, I'm well aware he only plays half his games at home ...)


Thank you for posting this. I've been trying to make the PA/HR argument myself but haven't been able to receive conformation of it's validity.

Pablo975 wrote:I say no. Being from the same town, I plead homer and want Hank to keep the record. However, I don't really mind if Barry gets it. It's just....there's a lot more to my enjoyment of the game than whose name is in a record book. I dislike Bonds, but it won't diminish my love of the game if he gets it.


Yeay! Normal people!
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Postby nuggets » Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:41 pm

Chicago RedSox wrote:I hope they find a way to ban him from ever playing again. He can go on book signing tours with Pete Rose.
It'll work as a deterrant from the upcoming kids from getting into the roids


Yes, we should push them toward Meth, Speed and Alcohol, shouldn't we?
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Postby modestninja » Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:58 pm

nuggets wrote:
modestninja wrote:
nuggets wrote:
CUBSWIN wrote:I do not want Bonds to pass Ruth or Aaron. It would be an insult to both these players and the game of baseball to have one of the most cherished records in sports broken by a player who used chemicals to enhance his performance. [/u]


Aaron used Amphetamines, Ruth a corked bat and illegal alcohol.Next please.


I'm sure being drunk and hung over for games contributed to Ruth's hitting ability. You sure showed them with that one! I know you were saying he used illegal substances but the main difference is that BB are performance enhancing, whereas Ruths probably impacted his performance negatively. Kinda like that Canadian who one the inagural snowboard olympic downhill and tested positive for weed... Not really going to help you perform to the best of your abilities (except in an eating contest).


Uhh then what's with the first two sentances? Oh typical Bonds hater BS, like 90+% of it.

I board far better when I'm baked. Many fight better after a few drinks. I don't care if Ruth was drunk, but if an alkie needs booze when under stress, I'm sure Ruth was better of with a beer or two in him before an AB.


The only point I'm making is that Ruth used an illegal substance and illegal bats so unless you're going on a witch hunt for him too, you are an evil sort of hypocrite. Evil because you are backpacking onto the destruction of someone’s life. Do you do this to everyone you don't like? Especially one who hasn't killed anyone or committed some crime against society? I think not.


So much for classy posts without personal attacks in them...
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Postby modestninja » Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:04 pm

nuggets wrote:
modestninja wrote:
nuggets wrote:
CUBSWIN wrote:I do not want Bonds to pass Ruth or Aaron. It would be an insult to both these players and the game of baseball to have one of the most cherished records in sports broken by a player who used chemicals to enhance his performance. [/u]


Aaron used Amphetamines, Ruth a corked bat and illegal alcohol.Next please.


I'm sure being drunk and hung over for games contributed to Ruth's hitting ability. You sure showed them with that one! I know you were saying he used illegal substances but the main difference is that BB are performance enhancing, whereas Ruths probably impacted his performance negatively. Kinda like that Canadian who one the inagural snowboard olympic downhill and tested positive for weed... Not really going to help you perform to the best of your abilities (except in an eating contest).


Uhh then what's with the first two sentances? Oh typical Bonds hater BS, like 90+% of it.

I board far better when I'm baked. Many fight better after a few drinks. I don't care if Ruth was drunk, but if an alkie needs booze when under stress, I'm sure Ruth was better of with a beer or two in him before an AB.


The only point I'm making is that Ruth used an illegal substance and illegal bats so unless you're going on a witch hunt for him too, you are an evil sort of hypocrite.


Last I checked it would be pretty hard to go after Ruth for those things. I believe unlike Bonds, he been dead for quite some time so it might be pretty hard to check his bats for funny stuff. Also, having been around plenty of alcoholics there is no way drinking regularily (aka: being an alcoholic) would make you play better hitter, especially a fine motor skill sport like baseball. It's possible that a player might do a little better with one or two in him (to loosen him up), but with alcoholics there is never just one or two drinks. Furthermore the constant abuse of alcohol is very hard on the body which definetely would negatively impact someone's performance over the long run.
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Postby kentx12 » Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:05 pm

nuggets wrote:
Chicago RedSox wrote:I hope they find a way to ban him from ever playing again. He can go on book signing tours with Pete Rose.
It'll work as a deterrant from the upcoming kids from getting into the roids


Yes, we should push them toward Meth, Speed and Alcohol, shouldn't we?



If we tell our kids that it is ok to do what Barry has done then that is exactly what we are doing. IMO 1 "illegal" drug is as bad as the other baring alcahol which isnt illegal. What difference does it make what drug you are using if it is against the law?
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Postby modestninja » Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:11 pm

nuggets wrote:
Chicago RedSox wrote:I hope they find a way to ban him from ever playing again. He can go on book signing tours with Pete Rose.
It'll work as a deterrant from the upcoming kids from getting into the roids


Yes, we should push them toward Meth, Speed and Alcohol, shouldn't we?


Why does pushing kids away from steroids, push them into meth, speed and alcohol? That's what I don't get about this whole everyone else cheated so it alright if Bonds did argument. Cheating is wrong no matter who does it. Period. End of story. I'm no more for Ruth using corked bats and Aaron using greenies (as has been alleged -- although no one has shown anything at all saying that this might have any basis in fact) than Bonds juicing... I feel like my mom, but just because so and so cheated doesn't make it alright for others to cheat.
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Postby modestninja » Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:13 pm

nuggets wrote:
Chicago RedSox wrote:I hope they find a way to ban him from ever playing again. He can go on book signing tours with Pete Rose.
It'll work as a deterrant from the upcoming kids from getting into the roids


Yes, we should push them toward Meth, Speed and Alcohol, shouldn't we?


The other thing, I'd guess most of the younger generation doesn't know much more than Base Ruth, or Hank Aaron's name so they wouldn't be pushed towards those substances and alcohol because of them... However, since kids see Bonds on TV all the time hitting homers and then see the stories of 'roid use, they might be tempted to take the same shortcuts...
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Postby Tavish » Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:19 pm

modestninja wrote:Last I checked it would be pretty hard to go after Ruth for those things. I believe unlike Bonds, he been dead for quite some time so it might be pretty hard to check his bats for funny stuff.


I don't think anyone is advocating digging Ruth's grave up and putting him on trial. The only real reason people mention Aaron, Ruth, Mays, Gaylord Perry, Phil Neikro, Norm Cash, Whitey Ford, Albert Belle, Amos Otis, John McGraw, The 51 Giants, the Bossards, Rick Honeycutt, Wilton Guerrero, and on and on is because people keep saying that somehow Bonds is destroying the integrity of baseball. Cheating (or trying to) is as much a part of baseball's history as it is a part of taxes.

Also there isn't much need to try and check Ruth's bats for funny stuff. He never denied using the Crawford bat and, like several of the others who were using it, griped publically about it being banned from use.
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Postby nuggets » Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:20 pm

modestninja wrote:
nuggets wrote:
Chicago RedSox wrote:I hope they find a way to ban him from ever playing again. He can go on book signing tours with Pete Rose.
It'll work as a deterrant from the upcoming kids from getting into the roids


Yes, we should push them toward Meth, Speed and Alcohol, shouldn't we?


Why does pushing kids away from steroids, push them into meth, speed and alcohol? That's what I don't get about this whole everyone else cheated so it alright if Bonds did argument. Cheating is wrong no matter who does it. Period. End of story. I'm no more for Ruth using corked bats and Aaron using greenies (as has been alleged -- although no one has shown anything at all saying that this might have any basis in fact) than Bonds juicing... I feel like my mom, but just because so and so cheated doesn't make it alright for others to cheat.


By persecuting Bonds and not even acknowledging alcoholism, speed and meth use in the MLB you are focusing on one issue to greatly that you don't see the big picture and are taking awareness away from these more important issues. If you were after the alcohol, meth and speed users like you are Bonds I would have nothing to say. But you aren't. You're after keeping a guy who you don't like, who is Black to boot, from having success just like the rest before him. If you are about persecuting all evils, then I want to see a sig claiming Ruth, Aaron and rest are horrible people and should be thrown out of the HOF.

No that won't happen, because you are hypocrite.

The least you could do is remove the Bonds hate sig.
Last edited by nuggets on Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby nuggets » Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:29 pm

Tavish wrote:
modestninja wrote:Last I checked it would be pretty hard to go after Ruth for those things. I believe unlike Bonds, he been dead for quite some time so it might be pretty hard to check his bats for funny stuff.


I don't think anyone is advocating digging Ruth's grave up and putting him on trial. The only real reason people mention Aaron, Ruth, Mays, Gaylord Perry, Phil Neikro, Norm Cash, Whitey Ford, Albert Belle, Amos Otis, John McGraw, The 51 Giants, the Bossards, Rick Honeycutt, Wilton Guerrero, and on and on is because people keep saying that somehow Bonds is destroying the integrity of baseball. Cheating (or trying to) is as much a part of baseball's history as it is a part of taxes.

Also there isn't much need to try and check Ruth's bats for funny stuff. He never denied using the Crawford bat and, like several of the others who were using it, griped publically about it being banned from use.


Why don't people understand this? It baffles me. I'm sorry but I just almost can't help using negative words to describe the aptitude and morality of these people.

I used to be on the Bonds hate side, after reading a few logical arguments from other posters two years ago I quickly converted.

I don't like Barry Bonds

I don't like the way Bonds has been treated by America in general to a much greater degree.

When people like GTWMA, Tavish, WR, HOOTIE and me all agree an something you can pretty much bet the farm it's true. What I said is basically like saying JFK, Jimmy Carter , George Bush, Ronald Regan and Noam Chomsky all agree on the same thing. :-D
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