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NCAA limiting scholarships is counterproductive

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Postby Phatferd » Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:55 pm

Madison wrote:
Phatferd wrote:You aren't seeing my point.

I don't care if a player gets kicked off a team for grades or out of school. What I have a problem with is preventing another person from ever going to a school because he is not given a scholarship because the athletic department now has 11 scholarships to offer, not 12.


Sorry man, but you're preaching to the wrong choir. College is for higher education purposes, with sports being totally secondary in my eyes. Personaly, I'd love to see colleges do away completely with athletic scholarships, and make them all academic based, but that's just me.


Are you saying that nobody has ever used their athletic ability to get their foot in the door and become a successful benefit to society?

Tom Osborne
Bill Bradley
Tony Gwinn
John Wooden
Coach K
Steve Largent

The list goes on, these guy's used athletics to get into these places and I guarantee you that the education they got while there shaped them into what they are now (along with other things, but education is a huge factor).

According to your argument, none of these people should have been allowed to get into a university solely based on their athletic abilities.

I think sports are great ways to learn lifes lessons and a lot about yourself. I don't think you should be punished because you excel in sports, while the kid next to you in home room excels in Math. It's been proven that given an opportunity a majority of these kids will in fact graduate (a total of all student-athletes). They will have proved that they were capable of completing college. If they graduate that is the universities way of saying they were capapable of being a student here. Stats show that more people graduate than flunk out.
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Postby RugbyD » Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:57 pm

Phatferd wrote:Nowhere did I mention people going to school to become professional athletes. I used the NBA as an example because they force kids to go to college now. As I said, this is beside the point.


i see it implied in these:
because if it weren't for that jump shot he would never even consider college.

Now that the NBA created a minimum age requirement kids don't have the option to go to the NBA. They must go to college and will leave early.

and from the same post where you denied you said it:
Should we punish a 17 year old because he wanted to make millions for his family through basketball


also,

I feel that these kids once in college will then have the choice to make it productive and be successful in whatever it is they do (business, investments, or just good people) and contribute to society in a positive way.

Why favor an athlete who may or may not become a student over a student who is already an athlete? Seems like a perverse incentive.
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Postby RugbyD » Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:02 pm

Phatferd wrote:Are you saying that nobody has ever used their athletic ability to get their foot in the door and become a successful benefit to society?

Tom Osborne
Bill Bradley
Tony Gwinn
John Wooden
Coach K
Steve Largent

The list goes on, these guy's used athletics to get into these places and I guarantee you that the education they got while there shaped them into what they are now (along with other things, but education is a huge factor).

According to your argument, none of these people should have been allowed to get into a university solely based on their athletic abilities.

I think sports are great ways to learn lifes lessons and a lot about yourself. I don't think you should be punished because you excel in sports, while the kid next to you in home room excels in Math. It's been proven that given an opportunity a majority of these kids will in fact graduate (a total of all student-athletes). They will have proved that they were capable of completing college. If they graduate that is the universities way of saying they were capapable of being a student here. Stats show that more people graduate than flunk out.


Are you saying the above people were academically inept before going to college. I highly doubt that.

People aren't being punished, as you say, for excelling in sports. Its just that people shouldn't be rewarded for excelling at sports when they have no academic skills by putting them in an academic environment they are not qualified to be in.
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Postby Madison » Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:16 pm

Phatferd wrote:Are you saying that nobody has ever used their athletic ability to get their foot in the door and become a successful benefit to society?


Where did I say anything that even resembled that? You really pulled that one out of thin air. :-?

Phatferd wrote:According to your argument, none of these people should have been allowed to get into a university solely based on their athletic abilities.


Exactly. College is not about athletics. It's an institute for higher learning. Here's the definition:

4 entries found for college.
col·lege ( P ) Pronunciation Key (klj)
n.

An institution of higher learning that grants the bachelor's degree in liberal arts or science or both.


http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=college

Click the link. Sports is not mentioned anywhere on the page.

Athletics should have zero bearing on if a person gets into college, since athletics is not what college is about. It's secondary.

I've been a certified bowling instructor for over a decade. I've taught all ranges of people (from kids to seniors to paraplegics, and everyone inbetween) how to bowl. Should I be "given" a job as a NHL coach? Of course not. Just because I excel at bowling, it has nothing to do with hockey, and therefore, I should not be "given" anything in the hockey world.. No different than sports players being "given" a scholarship. If they have the grades, give them the scholarship, if they don't have the grades, don't. College is about learning, not sports.

Phatferd wrote:I don't think you should be punished because you excel in sports, while the kid next to you in home room excels in Math.


It's not punishment, it's a matter of giving something for free to those who are going to maximize what the whole purpose of college is. Just because someone's good at sports (which is irrelevant in a discussion about higher learning), that doesn't mean you take away a scholarship from a genius out there who needs a scholarship to further his education.

College is for learning, not sports. Sports is secondary, and irrelevant, as far as what college was founded for. Colleges were not built in order to give the NBA, NFL, MLB, etc, a training ground, they were built to make people smarter. Giving the scholarships to the smartest of the smart is exactly how it should go.

Oh, and it's not like anyone can't go, who's qualified. It's called a job and working your way through college. People do it all the time.
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Postby Phatferd » Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:42 pm

I'm not going to argue back and forth, but what I feel you guys are failing to understand is that currently thousands of athletes across the country are currently there because of their athletics by recieving athletic scholarships and manage to graduate.

I just see your argument as flawed thats all. I can accept your POV, but I don't see how you can say they are not cut out for school when they end up graduating? How can they graduate from an institution, but still be considered not cut out for it? Percentage wise more athletes graduate than fail out.

I don't know where you think I am saying college is a breeding ground for all these major sports leagues. My whole argument is about giving people an EDUCATION so they can take what they learn in college and adapt it to the REAL WORLD and help better SOCIETY.

I don't know how you can also say sports has nothing to do with college when Sports are an active part of the institution and funded by the university. Sports benefits every university and if it didn't there wouldn't be any at universities.
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Postby Phatferd » Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:44 pm

P.S. I love you Madison.
You have no frame of reference, Donny. You're like a child who walks into the middle of a movie...
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Postby Madison » Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:58 pm

Phatferd wrote:I'm not going to argue back and forth, but what I feel you guys are failing to understand is that currently thousands of athletes across the country are currently there because of their athletics by recieving athletic scholarships and manage to graduate.


Ok, so they are graduating. Never said they were not graduating, but I'm sure if those athletic scholarships were given to the academic side, the college's overall GPA would increase, and there would be just as many kids graduating every year.

Phatferd wrote:I just see your argument as flawed thats all. I can accept your POV, but I don't see how you can say they are not cut out for school when they end up graduating? How can they graduate from an institution, but still be considered not cut out for it? Percentage wise more athletes graduate than fail out.


2 things. #1. Where is my argument flawed? College is for learning, not sports. Pretty cut and dry on that one.

#2. Where did I say they were not cut out for school? :-?

Phatferd wrote: don't know where you think I am saying college is a breeding ground for all these major sports leagues. My whole argument is about giving people an EDUCATION so they can take what they learn in college and adapt it to the REAL WORLD and help better SOCIETY.


I was just getting the point across that college is for learning, not sports. Giving scholarships for something that has nothing to do with why the college is there, isn't exactly the smartest move to make.

Phatferd wrote:I don't know how you can also say sports has nothing to do with college when Sports are an active part of the institution and funded by the university. Sports benefits every university and if it didn't there wouldn't be any at universities.


Sure, some colleges make money from their sports programs, but you're getting into the "which came first" catagory, and colleges were founded to increase knowledge. Not to play a game. The game is secondary.

Phatferd wrote:P.S. I love you Madison.


Sorry man, I'm married. :-D But you're ok in my book. ;-D
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Postby Phatferd » Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:00 pm

We made our points. I liked this debate a lot more than the last one.

BTW, I think BP may be stalling, lol.
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Postby Madison » Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:04 pm

Phatferd wrote:We made our points. I liked this debate a lot more than the last one.

BTW, I think BP may be stalling, lol.


Yeah, this one was better :-D .

You stole BP's pick and now he's freaking out. :-b
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Postby jzfran » Thu Mar 02, 2006 7:41 pm

Adding to madisons points (not going to quote that massive post tho)...Most schools do not make money in the athletic department. Most football teams and men's basketball teams do not even make a profit. These are myths. When a shcool cuts the little sports (track, wrestling, swimming, etc), they usually do it to pour more money into an equally unprofitable sport (ex: another d-line coach for football).
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