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Postby acsguitar » Wed Jan 25, 2006 12:01 pm

Racism is on all levels. I mean some blacks are racist against whites. Some whites are racist against blacks. Some blacks and white are racist against spanish people..

Here's some breaking news. Not everyone likes everyone else

And although I don't consider well done research "whineing" Lets look at our Native American population. We totally destroyed them and they don't whine about it. Although they might punch you in the face if you go to a reservation
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Postby bigh0rt » Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:48 pm

To wrs, perlick, etc.

I'm not claiming there is no racism, or that ignoring it will make it go away. What I'm saying is, whenever I'm reading an article like this, the feeling I'm getting is that they want more black coaches, officials, etc. simply just because they think there aren't enough (that sounds oversimplified, but so be it). It's their opinion that there aren't enough, so, there just need to be more.

Now, I'm not saying this is true by any stretch of the imagination, but what if there just happens to be more qualified majority members to fill vacancy X, at a given place and time? Should a minority be hired, because it's 'racist' otherwise? I certainly get that jist from a LOT of these articles. That, given identical qualifications, the minority MUST be hired, because there are simply not enough.

This forcing of the hand is what creates reverse discrimination, and fuels racism even further, in my opinion. Now, granted, we don't live in a utopian society where everybody can see beyond race, which is rather unfortunate, but I don't think a barrage of articles such as the one posted here are doing much good for the cause. Maybe that's just me, though...
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Re: Annoying

Postby Madison » Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:29 pm

davidmarver wrote:People are too quick to point out the color of skin as the explanation of why things are instead of looking at the greater picture, such as the surrounding circumstances of each individual case.


People are too quick to point out the color of someone's skin, period.

Color is irrelevant, yet we get things like Perlick pointed out:

Perlick29 wrote:An example of this was that Jerome Williams vs. Dontrelle Willis last year was the game's first African-American v. African American in many years.


Remember that? Why did it matter that they both were black? It shouldn't have mattered at all. We had two black pitchers face each other and it became a big deal in the media simply because they are both black. What difference does it make if they are black, white, green, gold, or purple with neon pink polka dots? The media is guilty of constantly using race to sell papers, magazines, get you to tune in to their shows, etc. Instead of the main thought being two young pitchers squaring off, it was all about race. Pathetic. :-t
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Re: Annoying

Postby acsguitar » Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:38 pm

Madison wrote:
davidmarver wrote:People are too quick to point out the color of skin as the explanation of why things are instead of looking at the greater picture, such as the surrounding circumstances of each individual case.


People are too quick to point out the color of someone's skin, period.

Color is irrelevant, yet we get things like Perlick pointed out:

Perlick29 wrote:An example of this was that Jerome Williams vs. Dontrelle Willis last year was the game's first African-American v. African American in many years.


Remember that? Why did it matter that they both were black? It shouldn't have mattered at all. We had two black pitchers face each other and it became a big deal in the media simply because they are both black. What difference does it make if they are black, white, green, gold, or purple with neon pink polka dots? The media is guilty of constantly using race to sell papers, magazines, get you to tune in to their shows, etc. Instead of the main thought being two young pitchers squaring off, it was all about race. Pathetic. :-t


agreed ;-D
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Postby Art Vandelay » Wed Jan 25, 2006 3:49 pm

Did you even read the article that you're complaining about?

As a group, looking at the big picture, yes, minority coaches pretty much got the cold shoulder this winter. But they certainly weren't alone. Guys like Ted Cottrell, Donnie Henderson, Tim Lewis and Ron Rivera have their majority counterparts in the likes of Jim Bates, Mike Heimerdinger, Mike Martz, Al Saunders and Mike Sherman, all of whom deserved an opportunity (in the case of Martz, Saunders and Sherman, a second one) but were passed over in favor of unproven and, in some cases, arguably less-qualified candidates.


The NFL's hiring process may seem like a black-and-white issue when in reality there's a lot more gray to it.


None of us should be so naïve as to think race doesn't factor into some owners' and executives' choices as to whom they will entrust their franchises. But it's hardly ever (I wish never) as simple as white guys picking another white guy over a brotha. It goes deeper than that.



This is a game, but it's still the real world, corporate America. And there, it's more about who you know than what you know. And perhaps just as important, who knows you.


Look, if you dropped the names of the 10 most qualified assistant coaches in a hat and each team drew, at the very least a few of them would come up with a minority. But it isn't that simple. We don't live in a meritocracy.


We've been focusing on all the wrong details of the Edwards-to-Kansas City story. Kansas City's interview process was pretty much the reverse of what transpires all the time in other cities. The Chiefs had their guy in mind and any interviews they conducted were just for show, only this time the minority coach was the guy.


Imagine. A retread African-American coach commanding a draft pick -- albeit a second-day selection -- as compensation and using his connections to get a better, higher-paying job. Progress? I'd say.


And many of the criticisms he has are true. For example:

Certain things won't change anytime soon. Minority coaches will continue to be unfairly evaluated collectively rather than individually. One minority coordinator expressed disgust at being asked during his interviews how he compared to Dungy, Lewis and Smith, as opposed to his white mentors.


Romeo Crennel had to earn five Super Bowl rings before he got his opportunity to be a head coach while Mangini served only one year as a coordinator before getting the call. Childress and Kubiak have head coaching jobs despite never calling an offensive play while Sherm Lewis never could escape the shadow of Mike Holmgren for the same reason.


No where does he advicate a minority candidate getting a job over a better-qualified white candidate...only that the reverse should not happen either. The NFL was slow to recognize the problem of lack of diversity (which isn't necessarily a problem in and of itself, but only becomes a problem when that is lacking despite very qualified candidates) in it's management ranks, but it's not as if it was the only instituion to be so. Many organizations populated by almost exclusively rich white men were slow and hesitant to include minorities and women (country clubs, major corporations, MLB, NFL, NBA, congress, etc), so it shouldn't be singled out.

As for Perlick's point about Williams vs Willis...it's not extremely important, but I think it is significant for a couple of reasons (which are related to the black QB, black head coach debate as well). Even after baseball had been segregated the knock on black pitchers was that pitching is "a thinking man's position." Same with QB (as recently as 10 years ago) and head coach. For years people would say we wouldn't see many good black pitchers, and that if we did they would be the exception to the rule. We now know this to be completely bunk. The same criticism was made of black QBs and black head coaches before either were prevalent.

Although explicit and ridiculous racism like this is now nearly extinct from pro sports, the effects of decades and decades of systemic prejudice hasn't been completely fazed out.
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Re: Annoying

Postby perlick29 » Thu Jan 26, 2006 12:38 am

Madison wrote:
davidmarver wrote:People are too quick to point out the color of skin as the explanation of why things are instead of looking at the greater picture, such as the surrounding circumstances of each individual case.


People are too quick to point out the color of someone's skin, period.

Color is irrelevant, yet we get things like Perlick pointed out:

Perlick29 wrote:An example of this was that Jerome Williams vs. Dontrelle Willis last year was the game's first African-American v. African American in many years.


Remember that? Why did it matter that they both were black? It shouldn't have mattered at all. We had two black pitchers face each other and it became a big deal in the media simply because they are both black. What difference does it make if they are black, white, green, gold, or purple with neon pink polka dots? The media is guilty of constantly using race to sell papers, magazines, get you to tune in to their shows, etc. Instead of the main thought being two young pitchers squaring off, it was all about race. Pathetic. :-t


I gotta say Mad that I disagree with this to an extent.

A) Jerome Williams vs. Dontrelle Willis was not made into that big a deal.

B)All I was trying to point out was that for two African American's to be facing each other for the first time in years, I actually heard ever but I wasn't positive, proves that whether subconsciously or overtly, there is a lack of black athletes in prominent positions in baseball. As much as I think the media is to balme for a lot of things, this one isn't it. All I'm saying is that the topic of stacking could use some further investigation on a powerful level. Race is an issue in college and professional athletics. I studied the numbers when I took the class. You said color is irrelevant Mad, but I think it is relevant because a form of segregation still exists in baseball for MANY reasons that can be blamed on both sides.

But to write it off as irrelevant, is something that I have the opposite view as you do. No offense.
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Postby perlick29 » Thu Jan 26, 2006 12:41 am

As for Perlick's point about Williams vs Willis...it's not extremely important, but I think it is significant for a couple of reasons (which are related to the black QB, black head coach debate as well). Even after baseball had been segregated the knock on black pitchers was that pitching is "a thinking man's position." Same with QB (as recently as 10 years ago) and head coach. For years people would say we wouldn't see many good black pitchers, and that if we did they would be the exception to the rule. We now know this to be completely bunk. The same criticism was made of black QBs and black head coaches before either were prevalent.


I didnt even see this post written by Art VanDelay and the "thinking man's position's" are definitely one of the criticism's that are still used today. Excellent post. ;-D
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Re: Annoying

Postby Madison » Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:37 am

perlick29 wrote:
Madison wrote:
davidmarver wrote:People are too quick to point out the color of skin as the explanation of why things are instead of looking at the greater picture, such as the surrounding circumstances of each individual case.


People are too quick to point out the color of someone's skin, period.

Color is irrelevant, yet we get things like Perlick pointed out:

Perlick29 wrote:An example of this was that Jerome Williams vs. Dontrelle Willis last year was the game's first African-American v. African American in many years.


Remember that? Why did it matter that they both were black? It shouldn't have mattered at all. We had two black pitchers face each other and it became a big deal in the media simply because they are both black. What difference does it make if they are black, white, green, gold, or purple with neon pink polka dots? The media is guilty of constantly using race to sell papers, magazines, get you to tune in to their shows, etc. Instead of the main thought being two young pitchers squaring off, it was all about race. Pathetic. :-t


I gotta say Mad that I disagree with this to an extent.

A) Jerome Williams vs. Dontrelle Willis was not made into that big a deal.

B)All I was trying to point out was that for two African American's to be facing each other for the first time in years, I actually heard ever but I wasn't positive, proves that whether subconsciously or overtly, there is a lack of black athletes in prominent positions in baseball. As much as I think the media is to balme for a lot of things, this one isn't it. All I'm saying is that the topic of stacking could use some further investigation on a powerful level. Race is an issue in college and professional athletics. I studied the numbers when I took the class. You said color is irrelevant Mad, but I think it is relevant because a form of segregation still exists in baseball for MANY reasons that can be blamed on both sides.

But to write it off as irrelevant, is something that I have the opposite view as you do. No offense.


No worries Perlick, and just to make sure we're clear, I wasn't calling you out. I was calling out the media. You just happened to be the one to mention one of the things that bugged me about the media.

Here's the thing. Why is race at the front of so much stuff? Because the media won't shut up about it. If the media didn't point it all out at every opportunity, it wouldn't be nearly the situation it is now. They are the ones creating the segregation you are mentioning. The media points out that there are a lack of black pitchers in baseball, and make a big deal out of Willis vs. Williams (and even the papers down here made a point to point it out). Now why is any of that relevant to the game? Answer: It's not relevant at all, so why bring it to everyone's attention? Answer: To sell newspapers, to create a story that can run for awhile and sell even more papers, to "stir the pot" in other words.

Ask yourself this: Does it matter to you if two opposing pitchers are both black, white, latin, or any combination? For me it's completely irrelevant. Doesn't matter in the least. The only thing that matters is if they can do the job. In the case of Willis/Williams, I thought it could be a good matchup, but I didn't watch it simply because I didn't want to add to the ratings due to the way they promoted the game. There was no reason for the media to point out that they are both black. None at all other than to create buzz. When media outlets resort to those kind of tactics to serve their own cause, it turns people like me off. You want to create buzz about Willis/Williams? Talk about them both being two youngsters with solid potential duking it out. Talk about the "Willis Express" on a roll, and Williams due to break out at any given moment. Talk about the fact that these two pitchers are very early in their careers and we will be seeing both for many years to come. There were tons of ways to get normal people to watch that particular game (most of us die-hard baseball fans were already interested due to the potential of both of the young guns). Don't resort to saying that there are two black pitchers facing each other. It's a very lame attempt to garner interest, yet the media can't/won't shut up about it, and make sure to point out things like that at every opportunity.

Like I said before, the media is pathetic. :-t
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Yes doctor, an army is forming.
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Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
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Postby perlick29 » Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:18 pm

You and I are sort of on the same page. On the one hand I totally agree that the media uses most chances it gets to play the race card purely to serve its own purpose.

The only thing is, is I'm trying to look at this through the eyes of an African-American person. My question would be why are two black pitchers facing each other a rarity rather than this being a common event, and more importantly, why are young black athletes not major league pitchers or catchers. Do most of them just choose other positions, are they strongly recommended or even forced to choose other positions?

That particular angle is the one the media NEVER covers. So to sum up, just stating the fact that two black pitchers are facing each other rather than two great young pitchers is completely wrong. Agreed.

In my book the bigger mistake is not examining why. MAD, would you be interested in finding out why there aren't more black athletes in central roles in baseball, or do you find this line of discussion irrelevant as well? (Okay if you do, not an insult just trying to gage how you feel on my sticking points, as I have shown that I very much agree with yours.)
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Postby Madison » Fri Jan 27, 2006 4:50 pm

Dang, I typed a big old long response and I guess I didn't hit preview soon enough and it got lost. :~(

So without typing that whole big long thing again :-/ , let's just say that I agree that a study to find out why there are not more black pitchers and catchers would be just fine with me. ;-D

Maybe I'll type that big response again if I get time. ;-)
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Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
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