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Stanley "Tookie" Williams

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Postby Art Vandelay » Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:37 pm

WharfRat wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:I got the point...I just disagree with it. You assign arbritrary numbers to actions that you deem good or bad and then pass off your made up equation as something substantial. You also assume that his non-action in giving the police information about the make up of the gang is bad (and somehow warrants a rating of -7...but you give no explanation as to why). It seems like a fun game, maybe I'll try:

I like children's books, so I'll say they're worth a positive 10. And I don't consider non-action bad...so he gets no negative points. That's a net of positive 10...which proves that he should have been not only granted clemency...but released from prison. And don't try to argue...the numbers prove it.


Evaluating Tookie's case: What does writing children's books accomplish? The children who read them may or may not be deterred from a life of crime. I have no idea how many children read his books, but I never did and neither did anyone else I know. I assume the books are targeted at inner-city youth at-risk to gang influence. So it's entirely possible that a kid who reads the books may feel some pressure to join the Crips or some other gang. The books are a nice asset, but questionable as to how much of a dent they may have on the monster that Tookie helped create.

On the flipside: If Tookie cooperates with law enforcement, he provides insight into the operations and structure of the Crips. I really hope I don't need to spell out the value that type of information can have, Art. It could be an extremely helpful tool against the Crips. It could prevent crime and lead to the encarceration of other criminals. Living in DC, I don't need to tell you about the American gang problem.

So yes, I would assign a higher value on the information he could provide, than the books he writes. But, if he doesn't cooperate...well, tough break for him, since he's not in much of a position to negotiate. Sorry Took, it's been nice knowin ya. ;-D Fried.

EDIT: And actually, my original point was that it did not actually matter what his crime was, like Phatferd was saying - it's a simple evaluation of whether or not he deserved clemency, regardless of the severity of the crime.


I don't even think Tookie should have been granted clemency (well...not any more than I think every person on death row should have their sentence comuted), but you continue to make outrageous assumptions and arbitrary designations that you somehow think prove your point.
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Postby Coppermine » Sat Jan 14, 2006 2:24 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:
Coppermine wrote:I'm somewhat left leaning, particularly in the fact that I, in a way, oppose the death penalty... but as an American I think upholding the law comes first and foremost. I have reason to believe that all the "Free Tookie" people really didn't know what they were talking about.


You think upholding the law is more important than justice?

I'm not even talking about this particular case, but to me, upholding the law is far from the number one priority.


I guess it's my fault for not being very clear, but justice is barely a perceptable reality. Upholding the law is really as close as we can get. If there were any evidence to suggest Tookie was innocent, that would be one thing... but he killed those people and the law says he should be executed. I don't personally agree with that, but that's what the law says and I'm not the type of person to assume that I change the law.
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Postby SaintsOfTheDiamond » Sat Jan 14, 2006 2:50 pm

HOOTIE wrote:No, no, no. Did the 4 people slain get to publish books? Did they get a chance to live 20 years after the fact? The whole idea that there was a free Tookie campaign, shows how misguided society is. The fact he outlived the other 4 is a travesty. The fact he was allowed to publish books too. Doesn't anyone do hard time anymore? Society is better off now. Congrats to Cali on this one.

I completely agree ... well said. ;-D
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Postby The_Met_Threat » Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:28 pm

Go watch the movie 'Redemption'. I just saw it and its pretty good, even though i found that it was siding more with Stanley Williams, and showed everyone else, and the Death Penalty System as being evil and against him personally. I really don't have much of an opinion on the matter, he could have become a changed man, but i never really knew the guy. I know he killed 4 people and thats pretty harsh. I don't believe in the death penalty, like copper mine, but i am not really swayed by any side.
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Postby baseball6791 » Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:38 pm

The_Met_Threat wrote:Go watch the movie 'Redemption'. I just saw it and its pretty good, even though i found that it was siding more with Stanley Williams, and showed everyone else, and the Death Penalty System as being evil and against him personally. I really don't have much of an opinion on the matter, he could have become a changed man, but i never really knew the guy. I know he killed 4 people and thats pretty harsh. I don't believe in the death penalty, like copper mine, but i am not really swayed by any side.


yeah, I plan on doing that, as well as trying to get copies of a couple of his books just to see what it was he was actually saying.
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Postby DK » Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:37 am

I'm basically opposed to the death penalty when it comes to the harshest crimes, but not because of the reason most people are anti-death penalty. The thing you guys are failing to see (all of course my opinion) is that there are things far worse than death.

If it was up to me, I'd throw Tookie in a blank cell with one set of clothes for life and the same meal every day. Just basic food, clothing, and shelter. He gets nothing else for the rest of his life. No books, phone calls, anything. He is secluded from humanity permanently. No parole, no opening his case. No human contact for the rest of his life.

I don't know about you guys but I wouldn't want to live if I were in that situation for 35, 40 years. The monotony would kill me.
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Postby curious_george_43545 » Sun Jan 15, 2006 3:38 am

DK wrote:I'm basically opposed to the death penalty when it comes to the harshest crimes, but not because of the reason most people are anti-death penalty. The thing you guys are failing to see (all of course my opinion) is that there are things far worse than death.

If it was up to me, I'd throw Tookie in a blank cell with one set of clothes for life and the same meal every day. Just basic food, clothing, and shelter. He gets nothing else for the rest of his life. No books, phone calls, anything. He is secluded from humanity permanently. No parole, no opening his case. No human contact for the rest of his life.

I don't know about you guys but I wouldn't want to live if I were in that situation for 35, 40 years. The monotony would kill me.


And Put on Ashlee Simpson music in the background :-o
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Postby wrveres » Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:01 am

DK wrote:I'm basically opposed to the death penalty when it comes to the harshest crimes, but not because of the reason most people are anti-death penalty. The thing you guys are failing to see (all of course my opinion) is that there are things far worse than death.

If it was up to me, I'd throw Tookie in a blank cell with one set of clothes for life and the same meal every day. Just basic food, clothing, and shelter. He gets nothing else for the rest of his life. No books, phone calls, anything. He is secluded from humanity permanently. No parole, no opening his case. No human contact for the rest of his life.

I don't know about you guys but I wouldn't want to live if I were in that situation for 35, 40 years. The monotony would kill me.


I like your plan, but that would be expensive and take up space. I say we have em fight lions on Pay Per View, just like the good 'ol days, and all of the profits goes directly to law enforcement
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Postby SaintsOfTheDiamond » Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:26 pm

DK wrote:I'm basically opposed to the death penalty when it comes to the harshest crimes, but not because of the reason most people are anti-death penalty. The thing you guys are failing to see (all of course my opinion) is that there are things far worse than death.

If it was up to me, I'd throw Tookie in a blank cell with one set of clothes for life and the same meal every day. Just basic food, clothing, and shelter. He gets nothing else for the rest of his life. No books, phone calls, anything. He is secluded from humanity permanently. No parole, no opening his case. No human contact for the rest of his life.

I don't know about you guys but I wouldn't want to live if I were in that situation for 35, 40 years. The monotony would kill me.

I completely agree, but that would never fly with the "human rights" people and like wr said it would be prohibitively expensive. :-/
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Postby Coppermine » Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:15 pm

SaintsOfTheDiamond wrote:
DK wrote:I'm basically opposed to the death penalty when it comes to the harshest crimes, but not because of the reason most people are anti-death penalty. The thing you guys are failing to see (all of course my opinion) is that there are things far worse than death.

If it was up to me, I'd throw Tookie in a blank cell with one set of clothes for life and the same meal every day. Just basic food, clothing, and shelter. He gets nothing else for the rest of his life. No books, phone calls, anything. He is secluded from humanity permanently. No parole, no opening his case. No human contact for the rest of his life.

I don't know about you guys but I wouldn't want to live if I were in that situation for 35, 40 years. The monotony would kill me.

I completely agree, but that would never fly with the "human rights" people and like wr said it would be prohibitively expensive. :-/


Exactly, while that may sound like a good idea, it would not fly at all... geez, our government is in enough trouble over mistreating TERRORISTS, can you imagine if we subjected our own citizens, criminal or otherwise, to such harsh treatment. Also, it's not necessarily worse that death; i'm convinced that most death row inmates don't want to die. I just don't think it's a deterrent.

Also, the death penalty plays an important role in criminal court; a district attorney has a tough enough job, even when the guy they're prosecuting is super guilty. By pursuing the death penalty, it opens up the possibility of there being a plea bargain without it going to trial; and that plea bargain is almost always life in prison without parole in exchange for a confession.
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