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Postby Art Vandelay » Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:31 pm

WharfRat wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:
WharfRat wrote:See, I don't think that's an accurate assessment. I think we can agree that Tookie's time in prison was of a negative benefit. The end result was NOT a good, because while in prison he continued to do bad that outweighed the good. Reduce it to numerical value, where positive is good and negative is bad. So let's say his books are worth a 3, but his refusal to cooperate is a -7. So 3 + (-7) = -4. The outcome is negative; so why would you reward a negative? If it had been a liquor store holdup, the Gov. would have declined to shorten th sentence, and made him serve out the remaining two years or whatever.


You can't just assess arbritrary numbers to something then pass it off as fact, or truth, rather. Your post assumes way to much.


Did you read my previous post? I spelled it out. I thought using numbers would make my point a little clearer. But since you missed the point entirely, c'est la vie.


I got the point...I just disagree with it. You assign arbritrary numbers to actions that you deem good or bad and then pass off your made up equation as something substantial. You also assume that his non-action in giving the police information about the make up of the gang is bad (and somehow warrants a rating of -7...but you give no explanation as to why). It seems like a fun game, maybe I'll try:

I like children's books, so I'll say they're worth a positive 10. And I don't consider non-action bad...so he gets no negative points. That's a net of positive 10...which proves that he should have been not only granted clemency...but released from prison. And don't try to argue...the numbers prove it.
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Postby Coppermine » Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:00 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:
WharfRat wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:
WharfRat wrote:See, I don't think that's an accurate assessment. I think we can agree that Tookie's time in prison was of a negative benefit. The end result was NOT a good, because while in prison he continued to do bad that outweighed the good. Reduce it to numerical value, where positive is good and negative is bad. So let's say his books are worth a 3, but his refusal to cooperate is a -7. So 3 + (-7) = -4. The outcome is negative; so why would you reward a negative? If it had been a liquor store holdup, the Gov. would have declined to shorten th sentence, and made him serve out the remaining two years or whatever.


You can't just assess arbritrary numbers to something then pass it off as fact, or truth, rather. Your post assumes way to much.


Did you read my previous post? I spelled it out. I thought using numbers would make my point a little clearer. But since you missed the point entirely, c'est la vie.


I got the point...I just disagree with it. You assign arbritrary numbers to actions that you deem good or bad and then pass off your made up equation as something substantial. You also assume that his non-action in giving the police information about the make up of the gang is bad (and somehow warrants a rating of -7...but you give no explanation as to why). It seems like a fun game, maybe I'll try:

I like children's books, so I'll say they're worth a positive 10. And I don't consider non-action bad...so he gets no negative points. That's a net of positive 10...which proves that he should have been not only granted clemency...but released from prison. And don't try to argue...the numbers prove it.


And you want to be wharfrat's latex salesman...
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Postby curious_george_43545 » Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:10 pm

Coppermine wrote:
curious_george_43545 wrote:
In John 8, a story is told of a woman who was caught in the act of adultery. The Old Testament Law demanded that she be put to death by stoning; Jesus saves her life by requiring that the first stone be cast by someone who has never sinned, and rather than take that role himself, simply tells the woman not to transgress again.


You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also


By executing a murderer we are cutting short his life and taking away his opportunity to repent.


Curious makes a good point about repenting, but I don't think that's really a problem... the average death row inmate is in jail for over 20 years before the death sentence is actually carried out. It'd say that's sufficient time to make your peace with God.

The ultimate justification for the death penalty, as in anything in law, should not come from any specific faith but rather the inequitable laws of man. Is the death penalty a proven deterrent to violent crime? Is the justice system competent enough never to put an innocent man to death? What truly constutes taking someone life as justification for them taking someone elses? And, finally, is the death penalty a rational alternative to life in prison without parole?

Some argue the prisons are overcrowded enough, lets just kill the deadbeats... well, prisons are overcrowded becasue of shortsighted and illegitimate drug laws. Throwing a guy in jail because he's hooked on crack or meth isn't really going to help anyone.

Like I said, I'm against the death penalty, but only because it appeases the moral climate of America; I'm not convinced it's an effective or legitimate punishment, nor a deterrent to criminals.


I agree the amount of time on death row should be enough to repent though I like to never give up on a human life. They may meet someone or experience an event that may change their mind even if it's at the end of their life that could change their faith. An obvious example are the criminals next to Jesus on the day he was crucified. The one criminal repented just before he died but that's all it took and he was promised a spot in heaven. I'm not saying death row inmates are going to meet jesus, but something may occur to change their minds and I just don't want to end their life before that can occur. Anyway I agree with you on the death penalty not being an effective punishment or a deterrent to criminals and therefore even without the religious argument should not be practiced. Sorry Madison. :-D
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Postby bigken117 » Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:13 pm

So writing a children's book should somehow offset murdering four innocent people :-? Yeah, um, no I don't think so. Maybe if he helped prevent hundreds, if not thousands more murders by helping police bring down the crips, then maybe he could be granted clemency. Maybe.
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Postby HOOTIE » Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:44 pm

No, no, no. Did the 4 people slain get to publish books? Did they get a chance to live 20 years after the fact? The whole idea that there was a free Tookie campaign, shows how misguided society is. The fact he outlived the other 4 is a travesty. The fact he was allowed to publish books too. Doesn't anyone do hard time anymore? Society is better off now. Congrats to Cali on this one.
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Postby Coppermine » Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:46 pm

So does anyone here even think that Tookie should have been pardoned? Doesn't look it, so I guess the question's becoming moot.
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Postby baseball6791 » Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:17 pm

Coppermine wrote:So does anyone here even think that Tookie should have been pardoned? Doesn't look it, so I guess the question's becoming moot.


Which is very interesting to me. I agree with most of what has been said in this thread, but where I live, my opinion was definitely not the majority (I live in a town that is heavily liberal, but for the most point one of the smartest and most educated areas in the country). I think that especially around here, in the media tookie was made out to be some sort of martyr, which made no sense to me. I also found it very funny that the day after Tookie was executed, many of the "ghetto" kids - pretty much all of whom are minorities (not meant to offend anyone, don't take it the wrong way)- came to school wearing "RIP Tookie" taped on their shirts. I think that before that week most of them probably didn't know or care about him. I talked with one of my black friends who was wearing it, and told him my opinion, and tried to explain that he killed four innocent people etc, and he shouldn't get off no matter what, and after sitting and actually thinking for a minute, I think he came to agree with it. So with that, I do think that there is a lot of truth in what Phatferd said earlier in the thread, that people and the media found ways to spin this and disect it away from what it really is.
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Postby WharfRat » Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:53 am

Art Vandelay wrote:I got the point...I just disagree with it. You assign arbritrary numbers to actions that you deem good or bad and then pass off your made up equation as something substantial. You also assume that his non-action in giving the police information about the make up of the gang is bad (and somehow warrants a rating of -7...but you give no explanation as to why). It seems like a fun game, maybe I'll try:

I like children's books, so I'll say they're worth a positive 10. And I don't consider non-action bad...so he gets no negative points. That's a net of positive 10...which proves that he should have been not only granted clemency...but released from prison. And don't try to argue...the numbers prove it.


Evaluating Tookie's case: What does writing children's books accomplish? The children who read them may or may not be deterred from a life of crime. I have no idea how many children read his books, but I never did and neither did anyone else I know. I assume the books are targeted at inner-city youth at-risk to gang influence. So it's entirely possible that a kid who reads the books may feel some pressure to join the Crips or some other gang. The books are a nice asset, but questionable as to how much of a dent they may have on the monster that Tookie helped create.

On the flipside: If Tookie cooperates with law enforcement, he provides insight into the operations and structure of the Crips. I really hope I don't need to spell out the value that type of information can have, Art. It could be an extremely helpful tool against the Crips. It could prevent crime and lead to the encarceration of other criminals. Living in DC, I don't need to tell you about the American gang problem.

So yes, I would assign a higher value on the information he could provide, than the books he writes. But, if he doesn't cooperate...well, tough break for him, since he's not in much of a position to negotiate. Sorry Took, it's been nice knowin ya. ;-D Fried.

EDIT: And actually, my original point was that it did not actually matter what his crime was, like Phatferd was saying - it's a simple evaluation of whether or not he deserved clemency, regardless of the severity of the crime.
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Postby Coppermine » Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:23 am

I'm somewhat left leaning, particularly in the fact that I, in a way, oppose the death penalty... but as an American I think upholding the law comes first and foremost. I have reason to believe that all the "Free Tookie" people really didn't know what they were talking about.
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Postby Art Vandelay » Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:28 pm

Coppermine wrote:I'm somewhat left leaning, particularly in the fact that I, in a way, oppose the death penalty... but as an American I think upholding the law comes first and foremost. I have reason to believe that all the "Free Tookie" people really didn't know what they were talking about.


You think upholding the law is more important than justice?

I'm not even talking about this particular case, but to me, upholding the law is far from the number one priority.
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